EP 422. “Taming the Wild West” of Guide and Outfitting Industry

 

Ramsey Russell: Welcome back to Mojo’s Duck Season somewhere podcast, where today I’m in Alberta. To the listener from the United States, can you agree that maybe, like, I’m starting to hear a lot of discussions about that maybe we’ve got too many outfitters and guides, or better said, we’ve got too many guides and outfitters in an unregulated system. Is that fair? Because I’m hearing those discussions, I’m wondering if you are. Joining me today is Mr. Corey Jarvis, president of the Alberta Professional Outfitters Society, Jeana Schuurman the managing director, Rob Reynolds, who you’ve heard for before, who was a board member of APOS and I thought it’d be a great opportunity to talk about what Alberta specifically, how they are organizing, what they are doing, how they are benefiting. Canadian hunters, paid hunters, what the hunting means to the economy of Alberta and to the local societies, and what are the benefits of this? Is it just a money grab by the government, is there better benefit to that? How are you all doing today, guys?

Rob Reynolds: Good.

Corey Jarvis: Doing great, thanks.

Ramsey Russell: Good.

Jeana Schuurman: Great. Thank you.

Ramsey Russell: Good. Now, Corey, you’re also an outfitter yourself. Mule deer, you were saying?

Corey Jarvis: Yeah, I’m an outfitter down here in southwestern Alberta. Been running for about 26 years here. We do a lot of deer, whitetail, mule deer. Mule deer seems to be the bigger focus these days, and then in the springtime we get up and do some bear hunting and we got a little branch that does waterfowl as well. So a little bit of everything down here. We’re pretty lucky.

Ramsey Russell: How long have you been involved with APOS?

Corey Jarvis: I’ve been a representative on the board probably, in my 25 years of operating, I’ve probably been on the board about 20 years total. I took a little bit of a break a while back, but I’ve been back on the board for 5 or 6 years here and president for about the last 5 years.

The Outdoor World of Alberta, Canada

I actually didn’t grow up hunting, so I grew up on a dairy farm. So definitely some exposure to the outdoors, but not in this sense.

Ramsey Russell: Jeana, how about yourself? How did you become with APOS and are you a hunter also? Did you grow up hunting like a lot of people here in Alberta?

Jeana Schuurman: I actually didn’t grow up hunting, so I grew up on a dairy farm. So definitely some exposure to the outdoors, but not in this sense. Then after university, I got a job with the guide Outfitters association of BC and really fell in love with it and managed to find an opportunity out here to come back to Alberta and enjoy the industry out here as well.

Ramsey Russell: How long have you been involved with APOS?

Jeana Schuurman: I’ve been here for 5 years.

Ramsey Russell: 5 years. Okay. Of course, Rob Reynolds. Rob, you’ve been in business. You told us a few episodes ago, 20 years.

Rob Reynolds: Yeah, almost 20 years in Alberta here. Yes, sir. I’m up in northeastern Alberta. We’ve been running for almost 20 years. I’ve probably had 7 years on the board level working with APOS, it’s been a great time and we love Alberta and we’re trying to promote Alberta.

Ramsey Russell: Well, then let me ask you this. So, we’ve got a couple of outfitters. We’ve got the managing member who has fallen in love with the industry and the outdoors, all running an Alberta Professional Outfitters Society. So, let’s talk a little bit about APOS. When was APOS formed and why was it formed? Anybody can jump in. I’m just asking the crowd.

The History Behind APOS

What was going on at the time, back in the mid to late 90s that felt you all needed to organize professionally?

Corey Jarvis: I can speak to that, I think and Jeana can correct me if I’m wrong. She’s on top of it there at the office and keeps things running smoothly for us, we couldn’t do it without her. We went into a society or we registered as a society and reorganized back in about 1996. So 1996, 1997, kind of through the process and there was some organizations before they were kind of a little bit splintered and, between government and these other organizations that decided to come together and form a single united organization that would run and manage the outfitting here in Alberta. So we’re called a delegated administrative organization. So we’re kind of just a short arm’s length from the government, and they’ve given over some of their responsibilities to us, and I think it’s run a lot smoother since they did so. We’ve been able to grow and improve and adapt over time, and we’re always evolving and making things a little better.

Ramsey Russell: That’s a great explanation. Now comes the question, why? Because you all were outfitters. You had Outfitters 1997. That wasn’t a terrible long time ago. That wasn’t cowboy and Indian days. I mean, that was a grown man back then. So why was it formed? And it’s interesting to me that this professional organization was formed by people participating as Outfitters.  What was going on at the time, back in the mid to late 90s that felt you all needed to organize professionally?

Corey Jarvis: I can speak to that again, and maybe Jeana or Rob can add something, too, as well. You mentioned something about the Wild west, so when you’ve got an unregulated system or a slightly regulated system, it just leads to a lot of room for error, a lot of room for conflict, I think is even the bigger thing. So, used to be in Alberta, like a lot of states, you could walk into the government fish and wildlife office and take a little test and become an outfitter, but you weren’t really confined to any specific region or anything along those lines. So I think it was more about trying to manage that, trying to manage the pressure, allowing the residents to have some opportunity as they needed it, and just to try to structure and get some control into what was going on, kind of take away a little bit of that Wild west and get it a more manageable system.

Ramsey Russell: Yep. Can you be kind of specific about some of the conflicts that were going on? Were there issues between Outfitters? Were there issues with the public? Were there just a lot of unhappy clients, customers?

Corey Jarvis: I think it was a little bit of both with the outfitter to Outfitter and Outfitter to residence as being the biggest challenge. I don’t think clients were the issue at the time, but there was no cap or limit or whatever. You look at systems like British Columbia and they’ve got territories and whatnot. So there were no such thing as that originally in Alberta, and people just chased around and follow the big buck rumors and whatever. So just put a lot of pressure on certain areas at certain times. So we just decided to divide it all up, or they decided to assign a certain amount of game availability in each of what we call management units. Then the outfitters were required to bid on those opportunities. From there, the industry started out and it’s grown and evolved since then.

Ramsey Russell: Kind of how this podcast topic came to be was having a discussion with Rob. Rob and I were on the phone one day. We were chatting about my coming up and hunting and visiting, and I don’t know how it is when you’re just in a roundabout conversation, somehow or another this came up and I was talking about some other provinces, talking about some issues down in the United States, and I got to talking about APOS. Many years ago, I’ve been in business 20 years myself, but many years ago, 15, 16 years ago, I got for lack of a better word, ripped off by an outfitter in Alberta, sent him a lot of deposit money. He ain’t going to pay me and I was desperate and I didn’t know what to do. I just had a thought, I’m going to reach out to APOS and I reached out to APOS, and like the freaking cavalry, blowing the bugle and waving the flags, here you all come to the gallop. Long story short, I don’t know what you said or what you did, but about 3 or 4 days later, he knocked on my door and paid me and apologized. I saw, as a foreigner an immense benefit to whatever APOS is doing or whatever. I just thought this would make a great topic. It’s still a lot of wild west going on in some of the provinces and certainly down in parts of the United States. I heard an outfitter say one time down in the states, I said, so and so is guiding over in that neck of the woods. He goes, no, he’s 50 or 60 miles away. When you’re hunting cackler geese or snow geese, it’s the same birds, and then there’s another outfitter that comes in and another outfitter that comes in and another outfitter comes in. Before you know it, you got 10 or 15 outfitters hunting the same finite resource within a very small geography. It’s very obvious in a certain other province than in Alberta, I just thought this would be such a great topic. Long story short, let me say this. I think that the Alberta Professional Outfitter Society is doing it right. You talked about it being delegated management, so what would be the primary purposes? What are your duties? What are your responsibilities? How are you organized and how do you work with the national government on organizing professionally the Outfitters? That’s to everybody.

Corey Jarvis: I’ll turn that one to Jeana for a second. She’s got that one on the tip of her tongue probably.

Changes to Outfitter and Guide Licensing Responsibilities

So the core pieces is handling the outfitter and guide licensing piece, so handling the annual renewals for that, as well as the allocations and the waterfowl privileges.

Jeana Schuurman: For sure, thanks. So the primary responsibilities under our delegation actually have undergone some change last year, but the core of it is the same as it was back in 1997. So the core pieces is handling the outfitter and guide licensing piece, so handling the annual renewals for that, as well as the allocations and the waterfowl privileges. Then we also hold members accountable to a code of ethics, which is likely where the scenario that you faced came into play. Then other pieces of our delegation have undergone some change over the last year. So we’ve had a wildlife management fund that contributes to wildlife stewardship since 2008. Last year with some changes that we worked on with government, this is now just a larger pot of money than it was in the past and takes the entire amount that outfitters pay each year in their allocation renewal fees rather than just a surcharge on that amount. So just going forward, will certainly be more active in the stewardship space than I think we have been able to do in the past. Then also under the new delegation, we have administration over the minister, special licenses, which is some really neat opportunities that the government makes available where the conditions for the hunter just above and beyond what you would experience normally. I think in a lot of the states the hunters will be familiar with the governor’s tags and this is a similar deal to that and then the funding that comes out of that we administer with help of fellow stakeholders back to stewardship again. So, core of the delegation, really pretty consistent since 1997, but definitely some enhanced responsibilities in the last go round.

Ramsey Russell: Amen.

Corey Jarvis: So, I guess to add to that too, what Jeana said there is in Alberta, if you want to operate and be an outfitter or be a guide, you need to be licensed. So it is a mandatory membership in the association to get started and I think that helps. That’s what I see when I visit with other presidents or CEOs from other jurisdictions and whatnot. Some of the struggles, I think by that simple fact that our organization became mandatory, it really helped open the door to better managing it and getting together as a group and being able to. There’s all kinds of benefits for that. There’s a ton of benefits of being organized and being a group that works together on it. I can’t see why the other jurisdictions wouldn’t all get on board with that.

Ramsey Russell: So participation. If I want to be a guider outfitter in Alberta, I have to be a member of APOS. It is mandatory. What are the requirements to become licensed in man and Alberta? What other specific requirements? Or do I just pay a fee? Boom, I’m in.

Jeana Schuurman: You pay the fee, the annual renewal fee, and then for big game, you need to be an Alberta resident, and then for waterfowl you can be a non-resident alien for those. Then you also have to get liability insurance that includes a bond coverage, and you also need to hold a guide designation. Sorry, almost missed that piece.

Ramsey Russell: Yeah, and to hold a guide designation, do I have to take any tests? I mean to drive a pickup truck to the local grocery store, I have to take a test. I have to show that I’m responsible enough and I have to be insured in most places before I can crank up my truck, go down the driveway, take a left and pull in to get a cup of coffee. Are there any requirements like that to be a guide or outfitter in Alberta?

Corey Jarvis: Really, the requirements. Oh, sorry, Jeana.

Jeana Schuurman: No, go ahead, Corey. You’re good.

Qualifying as a Hunting Outfitter in Alberta

 Do we need a dozen different kinds of tests because you don’t need to know the same thing as a waterfowl outfitter as you do as a sheep outfitter or, are there some generic things that we need to know specifically, any of our guides that are hired as a guide, they’ve had to go through a hunter’s training course and learn the laws and the regulations and such. 

Corey Jarvis: So, the responsibility falls upon the outfitter and who he employs and what training and such that he wants to do. Also, the liability kicks back to him as well. So our biggest concern and responsibility is making sure that all of our outfitters are licensed and insured. So we have to carry a $5 million insurance policy and the $10,000 bond, that’s a deposit protection for situations much like what you mentioned. So then as an organized group, we know we can apply some pressure to people when they’re not following the rules, but a specific test to become a guide or an outfitter at the moment doesn’t exist. It’s just, you have to get an endorsement from an outfitter and you can operate under that Outfitter, if you can apply for your own Outfitter license if you wanted to jump to that level of operation well.

Ramsey Russell: Being licensed and bonded and insured to that number you describe, 5 million. That that is a level of commitment. That’s not just two brothers-in-law and a sack of decoys guiding hunts on papa’s back 40. That’s a real level of commitment. Has there been any discussion about any other qualifiers to be a guide? Have you all talked in the past 20 some odd years about some other form of training?

Corey Jarvis: Yes, sir. There’s been a lot of discussion around. In fact, it’s probably an annual discussion. We have back and forth, and lots of outfitters like it the way it is for obvious reasons. We’ve gone through a lot of discussion on what a test would look like and what the benefits would be. We’ve got so many different species and so many different things we’re hunting. Do we need a dozen different kinds of tests because you don’t need to know the same thing as a waterfowl outfitter as you do as a sheep outfitter or, are there some generic things that we need to know specifically, any of our guides that are hired as a guide, they’ve had to go through a hunter’s training course and learn the laws and the regulations and such. So that’s mandatory to getting a hunting license in Alberta. So it covered those bases. It would be a little bit redundant, but there’s always argument for some different conditions to qualify. Mostly, I think the qualifications should fall on the outfitter side of things, but we do discuss it on a regular basis. Today we haven’t had the appetite to change it from the membership.

Ramsey Russell: To an extreme. I was in Sweden years ago, and all of the guides and outfitters had to take, I could only compare it to an associate degree in college. They had to not only take extensive coursework and habitat conservation, hunting, gun safety, firearm safety, waterfowl, or other species identifications, but then they had to apprentice under somebody for a period of time. It was rigorous. You could have been a banker or a doctor or any other profession for the time commitment that it took to become a professional guide in a country like Sweden. I just know that’s a big contrast from a guide, an outfitter somewhere down south, that all you have to do is have a Facebook page and sack of decoys and you’re in the guide business. It’s very extreme right there and that’s why I asked that question. It’s mandatory that outfitters participate. Who are the members besides just the outfitters? The board, the officer? What comprises a post? Is it all some of your participating Outfitters? Jeana, I know is on staff, are all your board of directors, are they all outfitters and guides themselves?

Jeana Schuurman: Yes. So our board of directors sit for 2-year terms, so both Rob here and Corey are on the board full time outfitters, so definitely a very busy time of year for them right now. Then we have 8 people on the board of directors and then a staff of about 5 people and around 550 outfitter permit holders in the province.

The Benefits of Outfitter Licensing

Now as we speak, that’s a significant amount of money that we get to work with to contribute to benefiting wildlife and benefiting all the residents of Alberta and not just the outfitters.

Ramsey Russell: Wow. I just saw this on social media the other day. We were having a discussion, or there was a discussion ongoing in social media about licensing and different outfitters back in the states, and someone said, and I thought it was a good comment, make sure it’s more than just licensing. I’m circling back just a minute. I forgot to ask this, what would you say to someone that says that outfitter licensing that just requires paying a fee is nothing more than a money grab by a government or private organization? What would you say to something like that, to anybody listening that might think that because there’s not a rigorous exam like in Sweden? They said that’s just a money grab. That’s just a pay to play. How would you counter that?

Corey Jarvis: I would say, oh, go ahead.

Jeana Schuurman: We both have something to say on that. I was just going to say I think we have a unique perspective as a delegated organization, and that really can speak to the benefits of licensing and what potential it can offer for the industry in that in some situations. Maybe if it could be administered just like a money grab, but in the situation we’re in, I think it gives us a tremendous potential to come together and do things as an industry and work to improve the industry. So I think it depends on how you organize it. Also, a test, I think sometimes from the outside looking in, it looks like a really positive and rigorous process, but looking to what is the outcome that you’re trying to achieve, is the test achieving that outcome? And in some jurisdictions, maybe it is achieving that outcome, and that’s what they’re striving for, but I think that the vision for what we’re trying to do is bigger than just saying you can cross off all these marks and now you’re qualified and in the field.

Ramsey Russell: What were you going to say, Corey? Same thing?

Corey Jarvis: No, I was going to say there’s a lot of advantages, and again, it goes to how you’re structured, but certainly uniting everybody on a front where we can participate with the government and government initiatives and so on. Our fee to be a member isn’t extremely high. So, I don’t know if you want me to mention it on here, but it’s $250 to be an outfitter for the year and $50 to be a guide, and then you got to carry that insurance. We’re not getting the insurance money that’s going to the company to protect the clients and what have you, and the $250 is just used to run our organization. I think what’s been really interesting, and Jeana touched on it, is we’ve been able to come together and now we do pay other fees. So we pay fees for access to the resource, basically. So as outfitters, we pay annual fees, they used to go to the government for each individual animal that we are allowed to harvest. So there’s no draw for non-residents needing to come to Alberta to hunt a moose or an elk or what have you. The outfitters have a set allotment of permits. That’s why they’re called allocations, as Jeana mentioned. So we bought those rights originally, but we pay on them annually. We used to pay that money to the government and it’s just a touch over a million bucks a year that all the outfitters combined pay the government for our usage fee there. As Jeana mentioned most recently we were able to negotiate with the government that rather than going into general revenue, that million plus dollars a year gets held back within our organization to go towards conservation and habitat projects. So we’re just opening that door. Now as we speak, that’s a significant amount of money that we get to work with to contribute to benefiting wildlife and benefiting all the residents of Alberta and not just the outfitters.

Ramsey Russell: Great answer. Rob, this morning you were telling me about some of the different committees, that it’s not just the president and vice-president board members sitting around drinking coffee, talking about issues, dreaming out loud that you all actually had other members that participated in different committees that acted in certain areas that affect outfitting. What are some of those committees and what are some of the things they do?

Rob Reynolds: Yeah. So the Outfitters combined will form these committees. There’s a marketing committee, there’s ethics and standards committee, a discipline committee, there’s a bird committee, there’s some big game committees, an allocation management committee. It’s not just board members making decisions, it’s a group of the whole association coming together on different topics and forming these committees.

Ramsey Russell: I want to ask you about some of these committees. When you say, what does the bird committee do? What would be an example that some of the issues that, and I’ll ask you the same question Corey with big game, what are some of the issues that you all deal with in Alberta regards birds or big game?

Rob Reynolds: So, in the waterfowl it’s maybe discussions on pressure, discussions on maybe new opportunities, discussions on what other jurisdictions are doing, just getting feel from different areas. The members usually come from different parts of the province. So, what a problem I might have in my area would be completely different from a problem on the opposite side of the province. So it’s all like minded individuals putting their heads together and trying to figure out the important issues.

Ramsey Russell: What are some of the issues you all work for in big game Corey? Is there anything specific? Quality management?

Overlap of Wildlife & Allocation Management 

Well, the wildlife management or the allocation management is a big one and it overlaps a little bit into the waterfowl. So, as I mentioned, we have allotments of different animals.

Corey Jarvis: Well, the wildlife management or the allocation management is a big one and it overlaps a little bit into the waterfowl. So, as I mentioned, we have allotments of different animals. So for all the different species there’s a number that’s given out and outfitters hold those now. So, if there’s any questions among outfitters and the distribution of them, and government’s always questioning us on them, so we work with government to make sure we have the right number. One of the committees Rob failed to mention, I think we do a lot of work with, especially right now, we’ve got a lot ongoing is a regulations committee. So, we discuss the province of Alberta, their hunting regulations and how they can be improved, then we put forward united requests to the government and work with other stakeholder groups or our resident hunting groups and so on, kind of lobby the government to make changes and keep the regulations modernized and up to date. That’s pretty handy as well.

Ramsey Russell: When we start talking about something like discipline, what are some of the issues that disciplinary committee would have to address? Some of the problems you all have addressed maybe in the past.

Jeana Schuurman: I think a lot of it is around delivery of hunt, and this is what the contract said, or this is what I was told versus this is what I got at the end. So a lot of misunderstanding about what that is or expectations that are not met. I think in the last couple of years there’s been a little bit more around social media side and what that means for the industry and what that means for hunting. So it’s an interesting development there, but I would say the most of them that come through are just around contract and it did or didn’t say and what was or was not provided.

Writing a Good Hunting Contract

A properly written agreement will protect both the outfitter and the consumer, and it’s that I’m aware of. 

Ramsey Russell: Jeana, we just dumped into a great topic. I want to dig a little deeper in how does social media affect professional outfitter society and professional outfitters and just hunting in general? What are some of the things you all have seen in social media? I mean, do you all have a rule of thumb? Here’s what you should and shouldn’t post on social media.

Jeana Schuurman: I think back to the language. I think one of my friends, she’s a grade 7 teacher, and they teach about, online citizenship and it’s not necessarily like on the marketing side. It’s just being mindful of whatever is posted on the Internet is something that everybody can see and whether that’s something that is on the marketing side or something that’s posted as an opinion or a statement, just making sure that those is are dotted and ts are crossed and that there’s some thought put into that and then I think even just on, how contracts are negotiated and whether or not it’s a formal contract or some sort of an exchange that happened on social media. I think it comes into play in a couple different ways, but definitely that thoughtfulness around what’s posted.

Ramsey Russell: There aren’t many outfitters that are attorneys when it comes down to writing a hunting contract. Do you all provide guidance on what Outfitters should provide to consumers regards a proper hunting agreement?

Jeana Schuurman: We have in the past, for sure. So we have a template, and it’s just gone back to our lawyer again to have another look at that and then the board will have another look at it in December to make sure it’s something that we’re comfortable saying to members, this is something that you might want to use with your business or consider as a template to support you in your operation. So it’s something I have on my desk, but I haven’t re-released it to members at this point.

Ramsey Russell: Yeah. All Outfitters and guides have a slightly different business model, slightly different approach to managing funds and managing client obligations and things of that nature, but there is a bare minimum requirement if you’re going to take a man’s cheque to deliver a 2½ day or 5 day hunting experience, there are things that protect. A properly written agreement will protect both the outfitter and the consumer, and it’s that I’m aware of. There’s no books out there to just open up and take a look at a hunt agreement. You kind of got to be in it, figure it out, or talk to somebody that’s been there, done that.

Corey Jarvis: It is an agreement though. So, one thing I don’t think a lot of guys do, but if you got questions from a client perspective, they should be asking them when they look at a contract and make sure that they’re satisfied with everything in that contract before they agree to it. We haven’t mentioned it yet, but it is a mandatory part of our insurance as well, that we have some kind of contractual obligation. So, we are trying to do what we can to protect the client as much as we can. Like Jeana mentioned, we have a template that we have shared and again, things change over time, and you got to keep refreshing them. So it’s important we keep an eye on that as well.

Jeana Schuurman: I think too. That’s one reason why, I have a template back from the lawyer, but I don’t want to just pass that on as is that we have all these people who are on the board full time outfitters been doing this a long time, you know, learn different things over the years of what works and what doesn’t work. So if there’s something in there that doesn’t make sense or, could be worded better or something missing, then that’s something that we can pass that collective wisdom on to others. So I guess speaking to there, another benefit for Outfitter organization is that you can come together on stuff like that.

Ramsey Russell: Absolutely. Circling back to one of my initial questions about social media, do you all field complaints or you all the people that the general public will approach if there’s offensive content or something that the general public finds offensive on social media that was posted by a guide and outfitter.

Corey Jarvis: We haven’t delved into that as all, as far as I know. I think usually people are probably complaining to the social media platform in most cases, but we have had instances, we have had instances here in Alberta, and some of them are pretty well known, where some offensive content hash it the fan and caused some pretty immediate changes and some reactions from the government level that affected everybody. The government doesn’t usually work too quickly, but when it ends up on social media, somebody killing a bear with a spear didn’t take but a couple days, and that was now illegal in Alberta.

Ramsey Russell: That’s the downside of it all. I’ve worked in some countries, Australia’s come to mind. Argentina is another, Netherlands, yet another around the world where there are very active and vocal, incendiary, emotionally incendiary anti-hunting groups and at the end of the day, anything related to what I do going out and hunting offends them. They don’t like anything, but at the same time, where I may not be going out to shoot ducks and geese just to make a photograph, it was an awesome hunt, and I want to post it up. I’m sorry, I just, I think that’s okay, and me personally, if somebody wants to hunt a bear or an elk or a deer or whatever, with a spear, if it’s legal, I encourage them to do so. I mean, golly, man, it’s hard enough to shoot something with a rifle or a bow, let alone a spear. What a monumental accomplishment that could be and so I just thought that’s a very interesting topic.

Corey Jarvis: I think it comes back to, times are changing, and most of our outfitters that I know, they get the negative feedback, like everybody who’s posting hunting pictures from either the social media platforms or individuals themselves that get on your page and start making comments and what have you, most of it take it with a grain of salt and usually push back a little bit. But at the same time, I think it’s necessary of all of us outdoorsmen and women that are hunting to be tactful in what we post and things like that. Just because of that, it doesn’t only affect you, it affects the whole hunting fraternity as a whole at times, if we’re not a little bit more careful. I agree with you, but I think too, we’ve got to make sure we do things in a tactful manner and we’re respectful to the game we harvest and so on.

Ramsey Russell: This conversation is tender to me because I had a conversation with an argentine outfitter who was the head of what they call their chamber for that particular province and every time I talk to him, he’s extremely mindful of posting any hunting pictures, because in his country, the anti-hunters will go through our, your’s, his, theirs, everybody’s hunting photos and take it and throw it out to their anti hunting followers and pervert the facts to promote their agenda. None of us listening or talking right now would dare do anything like that. We’re too busy living a life, but some of the guys that are on the opposite end of this ideology, they will do it in a heartbeat. They’ll take a beautiful picture of a nice trophy whitetail that you work very hard and studied, hunted for weeks or months to kill and totally pervert the facts, and it’s just a very daunting time with social media. On the one hand, it’s a great way to get the word out. It’s a great way to encourage a lot of positive attributes of hunting and fishing and being outdoors. It’s a great way to market yourself but there’s increasingly a lot of downside to social media in the modern era of hunting. I think we could all agree on that.

Corey Jarvis: Yeah, I think it really can be a double edged and I-

Ramsey Russell: Think you’re breaking up real bad Corey. I don’t know if you changed position.

Corey Jarvis: Shock factor, too.

Ramsey Russell: Yeah.

Corey Jarvis: Is that any better?

Ramsey Russell: Yes sir, it is. Sound like you might have been jogging around the block or something. Here’s a question you all mentioned. Go ahead. You all mentioned it as one of the committee’s allocations. I don’t know if you’re talking or not. You’re just coming in and out there Corey.

Corey Jarvis: I had them.

Ramsey Russell: Can’t hear you, man. Jeana, can you hear me? Let me ask you this question about allocations. There’s a committee about allocations. Tell me how the allocations process works and what are the limits and thresholds for outfitters within a geographic area.

Jeana Schuurman: So allocation management works on a post, has an agreement with the government of Alberta for what we call our tenure. Confusing sometimes because it’s 10 years. So sometimes we call it a 10-year agreement, sometimes we call it a tenure. So, interchangeably, but same deal. So that sets the allocation for the outfitting industry on that 10-year cycle and then theoretically reviewed around the 5-year mark to see if there’s any adjustments that need to be made. Then APOS oversees that at the outfitting level, and so the actual buy and sell of the allocations and the waterfowl privileges that continues on between the outfitters. We don’t get involved in those sales, but we do get involved when, you know, if Rob was to transfer to someone else or someone else was to transfer to Rob or to lease out, then we do get involved in those. That basically, I guess, covers the allocation process from province down to APOS and then we manage the share that the government has set aside for us.

Managing Waterfowl Outfitter Numbers

They didn’t want to put too much pressure on each area for resident conflicts, so they capped it at 4 outfitters per WMU.

Ramsey Russell: Okay, so about 10 or 15 years ago, why did APOS scale back the number of outfitters in certain geographic areas?

Rob Reynolds: So that largely had to do with waterfowl outfitters back then. There was no cap on number of outfitters in each area. So, the bird committee at the time had determined there needed to be some limits on the number of waterfowls outfitters per area. They deemed it at the time to have just some resource questions. They didn’t want to put too much pressure on each area for resident conflicts, so they capped it at 4 outfitters per WMU. So back in 2010, the number of waterfowl outfitters were already reduced at that time.

Ramsey Russell: Wow. Were there problems? That just seemed to be too many outfitters in the geographic area, too much hunting pressure, too many people tripping on each other at 05:00 in the morning.

Rob Reynolds: What was going on there was migrating outfitters you could say. The birds migrated, but they could just come and go. Some of the better areas were harder hit than others, but the waterfowl committee at the time said we need to put everything on a level playing field and, just seeing the current developments in other states and other provinces right now, there was quite an insight to that. Good time before its time, good 13 years before other jurisdictions have recognized the same thing. I like to think in Alberta here that we were maybe ahead of the curve.

Ramsey Russell: That’s how you and I started talking about this is Alberta saw the future coming. Just recently, Manitoba decided to go to a draw process. They’re beginning, whether real or perceived, to struggle with some of these same issues. I’m hearing talks about Saskatchewan doing something similarly to Manitoba in the future. APOS saw this thing coming 10 or 15 years ago. That’s why I thought you all would be a great example to speak to about these topics, and speaking of other provinces, how does APOS differ from other professional outfitter societies in other provinces? How do you all differ? Are you all the best?

Rob Reynolds: Of course.

Ramsey Russell: But why? What are some of the things besides your foresight 10 or 15 years ago to get a handle on hunting pressure, waterfowl, hunting pressure. What are some of the other ways that you all differ?

Rob Reynolds: Having that mandatory membership like we talked about already, I think that is definitely a key component. We’re all like-minded individuals, and even though we are competitors in the same industry, everybody has similar struggles and the more you work collaboratively with your own industry, I think everybody benefits from that. Obviously, having that mandatory membership, you know who’s operating where and what’s going on at all times. It’s more accountability.

Ramsey Russell: Somebody said that in the province of Saskatchewan, there’s a professional outfitter society, but it’s non mandatory. Does that mean I can operate as a guide without being a member of professional outfitting society? But I have to be licensed.

Rob Reynolds: You still have to be licensed through Saskatchewan, but the association is a voluntary member. Yeah, there’s no requirement, there is a little bit of benefit to members for marketing collaborative. I don’t know why I’m stumbling over that word, but as a group we can go to government together as a group and as one voice saying, look we have some issues, please work with us and obviously it’s better as a group than just as a lone soldier standing by yourself. If you go through all the processes and do what all you’re required to do, you’re taking more credible as a group as a whole. What do you have to add there, Jeana?

A Strong Foundation for Outfitting Society’s Activities

I think honestly our financial arrangement with the government of Alberta is something that really sets us apart as an outfitting society and gives us such a strong foundation for everything else that we want to do.

Jeana Schuurman: I think honestly our financial arrangement with the government of Alberta is something that really sets us apart as an outfitting society and gives us such a strong foundation for everything else that we want to do. So, we don’t have to spend a lot of time during the year worried about fundraising and what initiatives are going to go forward this year and what don’t because we have a pretty clear sense of budget and pretty clear sense of what that predictable revenue looks like through the year. I mean, COVID aside, it’s been very normal and predictable within a short range over that period, and I think it’s just a really good foundation to work off of.

Ramsey Russell: Excellent. Here’s a question for both of you all. How does a professional outfitter association benefit local hunters Canadians? Break. It’s just my perspective or my understanding as an outsider looking in. It just seems to me that Canadian wildlife services and biologists, that biological side up here seems to be very Canada first oriented. For example, outside businesses cannot own the majority stake of land or corporations in Canada. It seems to be that you all’s government is very Canadian first. So I’m asking, how does the Professional Outfitter Association benefit local hunters? How does it benefit guys like me, the client hunter that comes in from America or somewhere? How does it benefit hunting in general and how does it benefit the wildlife resource?

Rob Reynolds: Go ahead, Jeana, you go first.

Corey Jarvis: I’m back on if you guys can hear me.

Ramsey Russell: I can hear you. Corey, welcome back.

Corey Jarvis: Thank you.

Jeana Schuurman: I’m happy to take this one, or Corey, if you want to touch on benefit back to other resource users.

Corey Jarvis: Give it a whirl to start with and then I’ll probably add something to it.

Jeana Schuurman: All right. I think, like Corey spoke a little bit about some of our advocacy around regulations and then for some of the committees that Rob mentioned earlier, whether that’s bird game or big game, really bringing forward a voice for wildlife to government and I think everybody benefits back from that. If there are regulations that are not making sense or just creating red tape and bringing those to government with different solutions, I think the outfitters have a really strong interest in making the industry super strong and making hunting really strong in Alberta for the sake of the industry. There’s just such a huge benefit for all the other stakeholders in the province from the things that we’re asking for back to government. So I would say that’s a huge benefit. Corey, I guess I would turn it to you if there’s other things you’d want to add there.

Corey Jarvis: Well, we always say what’s good for the outfitting industry is really good for the residents as well. Some residents may disagree with that, but I believe if you think about it deep enough, I think it’s true. So that’s the resident side. For the non-residents I think coming up here to hunt, I think having a structured system and some checks and balances, I think makes it a more reliable opportunity and has some advantages there as well. I don’t know what the other things you asked were related to.

Ramsey Russell: Those are very good answers. How it affects the local hunters and client hunters, but also asked how professional outfitter society, some of the benefits it offers to just the hunting tradition and to the wildlife resource.

Corey Jarvis: I think Jeana touched on the wildlife resource for sure. So, the 2 funds we’ve mentioned are wildlife management fund, which is comprised of that money that we collect from outfitters. So that’s outfitters paying into the pot and rather than going into general revenue now, we keep that back and can put it towards habitat and conservation projects and ideas and research and such. She mentioned, the minister’s permits, which is similar to the governor’s permits that we auction off and take care of, that brings a lot of money back into that as well. I think if you ask any outfitter, their primary concern is managing and protecting the resource and the habitat that it depends on. So, there’s lots of benefit that comes from that. One benefit that’s not often recognized is individually outfitters contribute and donate to all kinds of organizations and all kinds of communities at the community level and stuff, Ducks Unlimited, Delta waterfowl and all the different associations, they get donated hunts and things like that that help them survive and help them generate some of their money as well. So that’s individual outfitters contributing back as well. That’s pretty significant. I don’t know if we’ve ever quantified how much that is. We’ve tried a couple times, but with 550 outfitters, I don’t know what percentage of them are donating on an annual basis, but that adds up in a hurry.

Ramsey Russell: Sure it does. Speaking of the economic benefit, and you and I touched on this the other day Rob, how important is hunting to Alberta?

Rob Reynolds: The tourism market is definitely important to Alberta. We’ve been known as the oil and gas producer but our province is looking to expand opportunities. Tourism is great. We’ve pretty diverse province and the level of client that’s coming to Alberta that probably wouldn’t come for any other reason is now coming to Alberta to come hunt, and then they fall in love with our province and have seen other, maybe I’d like to go fishing or maybe I’d like to go to the Calgary Stampede, or maybe we’d like to come check out the northern lights, or maybe we’d like to do various other things. It opens the door to other tourism ideas once we get them here because of hunting.

Ramsey Russell: I don’t want to put you on the spot. We are talking about other tourist ideas, we’re talking about the value of hunting, which is significant. The hunting really helps these local communities, does it? The lodge full of people, you’ve got in this little town, the lodge that Corey’s got, hit guy in his town full of clients coming in, that does stimulate these local economies in a way that maybe not much else will.

Benefits of Tourism

 I think the province is recognizing that and we have a lot of support for our industry and for hunting in general in Alberta. 

Rob Reynolds: Yeah, you bet. It’s just spin off. We buy local and support local and we fuel up with gas and food every day and it definitely helps these little communities.

Corey Jarvis: We’re really pretty proud of our tourism roots. A lot of people don’t think of us as a tourism organization. We’ve done some work in the past few years to let the government know and show them that we are a solid tourism resource. In fact, we’re pretty convincing in the fact that we have the highest valued tourists that come to our province.

Ramsey Russell: Really?

Corey Jarvis: Yes, sir. As governments look to diversify their economies and what not, per capita nobody compares to the dollar value of a hunting client tourist and as Rob said, a lot of times they spin off to other benefits as well. In our most recent commission study, which is clear back from 2017, so it’s not all that recent, but the economic, domestic product value of hunting or outfitting in Alberta is $328 million annually, adding to the GDP here. So that’s a huge benefit and we check all the boxes for tourism too, because it’s easy to get people here in the summertime to go to the big parks, Banff and Jasper and so on but tourism is always scratching its head trying to figure out how to branch into the shoulder seasons, they call it, and the more remote parts of the province. Well, we definitely do well in both of those categories and so, I think the province is recognizing that and we have a lot of support for our industry and for hunting in general in Alberta. So we’re lucky that way as well.

Ramsey Russell: I’ve only seen the northern lights one time. It was a long time ago on a bear hunt, and I really thought the first time I saw them, I thought the moonshine we were celebrating with was getting to my eyes, but somebody told me this morning that even the northern lights are becoming a tourist attraction. Is that right, Rob?

Rob Reynolds: Yeah. People come from all over the world to see the magical lights and they say there’s lots of powers that’ll give you if you see them.

Corey Jarvis: Maybe you’ll be a better duck hunter. Maybe you can shoot more ducks or something, I don’t know. Well, and even northern lights is one thing, but you know what also is getting popular? People want to see a dark sky. They’ve got dark sky tourism now, where you’re just looking at the stars and it’s not being interfered with other lights from communities or whatever else. So surprisingly, that’s a thing these days too. So you might be surprised about that one.

Ramsey Russell: That does surprise me but then again, it doesn’t. I mean, you’re right, because when you’re out here setting up in the morning less than except your headlamps, it’s nothing but black sky and stars. That’s kind of hard to find this day and age.

Corey Jarvis: So, what we’re used to, we take for granted. I’m always brought back to reality when I’ve got clients with me in the truck and how they’re mesmerized by the scenery and the beauty and the openness. Lots of people feel like they’re going back in time to see how much wildlife and resource, and we’re down here right up against the Rocky Mountain. So every day is a postcard, they comment to me sometimes, so we’re pretty lucky here.

Ramsey Russell: Recently, Manitoba went to a non-resident draw. I’m hearing rumors that Saskatchewan is considering it. I’ve heard rumors that Alberta has had the discussion, is it coming? might there be a nonresident draw? And let’s just speak for waterfowl. Is that going to sweep Canada and why might it? What do you all think is going on, that is making some of these provinces consider limiting by draw the number. We just talked about how freaking valuable tourism is, so why would I want to limit that?

Hunting Pressure Is Harmful for Hunters and Landowners

Ultimately, it’s pretty easy to recognize that too much pressure is not good for anybody. Then I think there’s a domino effect. That’s our fear of Manitoba going to that style that it just keeps pushing over, and then if Saskatchewan gets something in place because they’re worried about the Manitoba overflow, then Alberta has to look at that as well.

Corey Jarvis: Well, at some point, there’s a threshold that you got to manage for. I’ve seen a number of states go to something similar. I think both of the Dakotas are in that ballpark and Kansas, if I’m not mistaken, did that. You’ve got states like Montana that had to go to limits on fishing days and stuff like that, how many guys can get on the river and stuff like that. Ultimately, it’s pretty easy to recognize that too much pressure is not good for anybody. Then I think there’s a domino effect. That’s our fear of Manitoba going to that style that it just keeps pushing over, and then if Saskatchewan gets something in place because they’re worried about the Manitoba overflow, then Alberta has to look at that as well. I mean, there’s a variety of options that a province or a state can take, and that’s just one of them. I won’t say that the discussion is not out there and the thought of what do we plan to do if that becomes a concern. Again, it’s just going right back to where we started. This whole conversation is you got to have some controls in the wild west. There’s pressure on landowners and as an organization, that’s one thing we see and feel and hear about all the time is landowners who are getting tired of people coming, knocking on their door and calling them at all hours and whatnot and they’re asking for some changes at times as well. So those are the kind of things that lead to it. You think Waterfowl is an infinite resource, but there is some finiteness to the access to the resource and the number of fields and shoots and stuff that are available. On behalf of residents of Alberta and so on, I think you’ve got to watch and see and maybe that’s back to social media. You guys have done such a good job of making waterfowl hunting so popular and coming up to Canada and waterfowl hunting, that there does need to be some checks and balances, despite the fact, as you mentioned, there’s financial spinoffs and benefits. People coming to a rural community and whatnot, but-

Ramsey Russell: Too much.

Corey Jarvis: Got to watch-

Ramsey Russell: How much of a good thing’s bad. You talk about the number of duck hunters, and I just read a week or two ago in Delta waterfowl magazine that last year, the number of Canada duck hunters or waterfowl hunters declined 16%, and the number of waterfowl hunters in America declined 9% and everybody listening to hunts, public land down in the south is shaking their heads going, no that’s not true. So now in Canada and the United States combined, there’s 1.1 million waterfowl hunters. Now, I don’t know what the population of Canada is but the population of America is 330 million plus the canadian population, 1.1 million really doesn’t make a huge difference. We’re almost becoming insignificant at that number right there. The reason I feel like we see a lot of crowding, especially south of the border is because habitat and acreage that can be accessed for hunting is declining at a greater rate than we hunters are declining, which-

Corey Jarvis: I think that. Yes, sir.

Ramsey Russell: Go ahead, please.

Corey Jarvis: I think that a big part of it and I don’t know how we measure up here in Alberta. I know we’re one of the few jurisdictions, but I don’t know that we have a breakdown between big game hunters and waterfowl hunters, but our hunter numbers are increasing here in Alberta, so we’re growing the number of hunters that buy licenses every year and again, I don’t know what the split is. I can maybe do a little looking into that, but it boils back down to access. That being one of the biggest things. It don’t matter how many geese fly through the area and whatnot. If there’s only a dozen fields in an area that have allowable access and there’s 20 people trying to get on there then problems start to arise, and some people feel shut out and what have you. So more than anything, I think it’s access. I think the waterfowl populations are healthy and whatnot. How do you manage access? And in Alberta, one thing that surprises almost every client I get is when we tell them we’re not allowed to pay for access, we’re not allowed to pay to get on a farmer’s land. It’s all goodwill. It’s all going knocking on a door and hopefully you’re a nice enough guy, and frankly, to be honest with you too, part of what’s causing the problem is there’s some pressure from the American outfitters that are used to paying for access. A lot of farmers don’t know any different. Some guy shows up and offers some money or goods or whatever. Yeah, they’re happy to let them hunt. They’re happy to let them have that field for the whole week and then it comes back to bite everybody in the butt when the residents or the outfitters or whatnot, can’t get on. So, something has to break at some point.

Ramsey Russell: We’ve already touched on a couple of these issues, but I want to reframe a different question and I want to ask this question here. What are some of the critical issues and challenges facing hunting wildlife conservation in Alberta that Alberta’s professional Outfitter society can do something about and what is APOS doing about it?

Corey Jarvis: I think, as you mentioned, we as hunters are an insignificant portion of the population when it comes to voting and people interest in big issues and whatnot. It’s unfortunate that we don’t stand a little more united at times. But the fact that we’re a small percentage of the voting population, it’s really hard to keep the attention of the politicians and it’s really hard to get the general populace, especially when they come from the cities to have any concern about what you’re concerned for. I don’t think they put two and two together that hunting supports wildlife and hunting supports conservation and this and that. As you have you’ve mentioned more pressure from social media where people just get on and try and tear you down because you’re a hunter, because you’re gathering your own food, because you’re trying to even simply just enjoying it. But I think that’s a big pressure that’s ever growing, we see those pressures internationally. I think the outfitter society, we do a really good job of staying united and staying on top of the politicians and the fact that we’re well organized and got a lot of passionate people and it’s our livelihood. We’re willing to spend the time and even the money to protect it. That’s why I say, what’s good for Outfitters is good for residents because the residents don’t often get together in big groups and worry that much about it. They might grumble about it, but it’s not their livelihood being lost. We’ll sometimes end up having to fight tooth and nail for something to protect those opportunities, but we’re willing to do so.

Ramsey Russell: Last question. From the outside looking in. Why might a country like the United States consider forming professional outfitter organizations at the national or state levels? It goes back to one of the original questions about why a post was formed. I’m just curious as to your 3 opinions on to why a state or a federal government that’s not presently organized should organize. We’ve touched all over it, I know, but I just want to hear it from you all.

Jeana Schuurman : I think one benefit that you get from the organization of an outfitting society, particularly when there is a mandatory membership, but in any capacity, is being able to trace things as they evolve and change. So even who we were in 1997, if we had just stayed in that iteration, some of the relevance would have been maintained, but certainly not all of it. I think the closeness with the industry, you’re able to see how things are evolving on the ground and be able to be responsive to that. I think sometimes its maybe government managing from a distance, it’s just another thing to check off the list of, we got this industry taken care of. I think really the benefit is that we’re closer to the industry so we can kind of speak to what the needs of the industry are and lobby on behalf of that and whether that some of our work with travel, Alberta and really promoting this as a destination or some of the other work with government on trying to find solutions that work for business owners and wildlife stewardship that matches the needs of outfitters and resident hunters, I think we’re there for that.

Ramsey Russell: Good question.

Corey Jarvis: I think there’s a myriad of benefits. Anytime you can get a group of like-minded people together and you’re uniting for a cause. Like I said, we work together on getting regulations changed, our insurance, we carry great insurance. As a united group, our insurance rates are really quite reasonable for that insurance. So, I think all those, those lobbying type or group type things working together as a group to work on discounts and bringing all the like-minded people together to help resolve issues and challenges. As a board, we’ve got an 8-member board of directors, and I think we’ve tallied it up a couple times. We’re sitting around 250 years of outfitting experience on our board of directors with those 8 individuals. So, there’s not too many problems we can’t get together, put our heads together and come up with some pretty good ideas. I think those are some of the great reasons to form an organization. Just be a collective and have a voice with government and work together.

Rob Reynolds: For my 2 bits, when I’ve heard people go hunting in Africa, they deem it’s not just a guide, it’s a PH and Alberta Professional Outfitter Association, we strive not just to be guides, we want to be professionals as well, and part of that association and like-minded individuals working together, like we heard it comes together and you’re now a professional and you’re held to a higher standard. That’s what I think one of the big points of an outfitting association would be for me.

Ramsey Russell: You bring up a great topic there, Rob. Those are very good answers. When we start talking about professionalism, we start talking about higher standards, what’s always been an interesting thought to me about what we do is, we sell hunts, we deliver hunting experiences, but the wildlife does not belong to we guides and outfitters. It does not belong to the hunters. It belongs to the state and provincial and federal governments. It’s a public trust doctrine. That wildlife is public trust and relative to, let’s just say, 350 to 400 million people in Canada and the United States combined. Only 1.1 million of us waterfowl hunt, for example, but that waterfowl belongs to everybody. There are a lot of people, increasingly, there are a lot of people that do not like the way that we behave in social media, that we manage our outfits, that we take maybe without giving back. I think you all have demonstrated unequivocally that APOS gives back. We hunters pride ourselves as being conservationist, giving back but maybe segments of us are more take than give back. I’m a foster by training a wildlife biologist, which is not a rocket scientist. I was required to take rigorous tests and exams. If I wanted to continue being a registered forester, I had to continue taking continuing education credit to improve my professionalism, to improve my services at a higher standard and the same could be said about real estate, insurance, medical, legal, doctors, lawyers, everybody. Real professionals have to be a part of a professional society and operate at a professional higher standard. Not so with a lot of hunting, even here under the north American model in America, which is why I think this is for me personally such a fascinating topic. Thank you for joining us. Folks you all been listening to Corey Jarvis, president of the Alberta Professional Outfitter Society, Ms. Jeana Sherman, managing director and my buddy Rob Reynolds, board member of APOS. Thank you all for listening to today’s episode of Duck Season Somewhere. We’ll see you next time.