EP 476. California Leads Nation’s Duck Harvest Thanks to CWA

 

California Waterfowl Bragging Rights

Ramsey Russell: Welcome back to MOJO’s Duck Season Somewhere podcast, where today I got a really great story, conservation comes in a lot of different forms, but what surprises me and it shouldn’t, but what surprises me is that one of the most cutting edge, largest grassroot movements turned into a major habitat conservation organization originated in of all places California. Joining me today are various and sundry board members and activists with California Waterfowl Association. How are you guys doing?

John Carlson: Doing well. Good morning.

Jake Messerley: Good morning. Thanks for having us.

Ramsey Russell: Yes, sir. Will everybody please introduce themselves?

John Carlson: Sure. I’m John Carlson, I’m the president of California Waterfowl at this time, soon to be retired.

Jake Messerley: And I’m Jake Messerley, the newly appointed CEO of California Waterfowl, been with the organization for over 22 years and am grateful every day for the time I get to spend working here on ducks and with duck hunters and habitat, it’s just a great organization. So thanks again for having us, Ramsey.

Ramsey Russell: Oh, yes, sir.

Mark Henley: And I’m Mark Henley with California Waterfowl’s advocacy department, basically the vice president of advocacy, do a lot of work down at the state Capitol and Jake’s spot on, I mean, we got the best jobs in the world. It’s been a real treat to be able to do this for like the last, she’s 2024 years, so it’s good.

Ramsey Russell: Gentlemen, welcome to Duck Season Somewhere and I’m very proud to have you all, for those of you all listening, that are wondering about California, because I was in a conversation, I’m going to share this with everybody. I was in a conversation as recently as last month down in Mexico with somebody from the East coast saying, well, California, what’s in California? Boy, did I give him an eyeful. Something he’d never considered, nothing he’d ever seen, I was forced and it’s been 16, 17 days, my buddy John Wills and we went on a burrito tour to include duck hunting in all the various and sundry amazing waterfowl habitats that exist in California and it opened my eyes. I was surprised to learn recently that California is consistently in the top 5 states, regards waterfowl harvest in the United States of America, oftentimes number one state in the United States, lower 48, I should say, in waterfowl harvest, a tremendous longstanding history. Anybody listening can refer back to some of the podcasts we’ve had in the past, some of the episodes regards California’s colorful waterfowl history. And I was asked one time by a buddy in a blind, Ramsey is there anywhere you’ve ever been that you would even consider leaving your home for 58 years in the state of Mississippi for? I said, yeah with a few little changes, I could see myself living in California. I really could, I love it out there and once you get out of side of those cities, it’s real America type stuff. And so, I’m proud to have you all here and regards the number of ducks and the conservation movement and everything else, which is the purpose of having you all here today. Habitat conservation doesn’t happen by accident, waterfowl management is purposeful in this day and age and I just can’t think of a better poster child for holding the fort in conservation than the state of California, specifically California Waterfowl Association. First question I’ve got and anybody jump in, what is California Waterfowl Association? What are its histories and origins?

The History of Waterfowl in California

I think we’re really lucky that they got a hold and they started getting things into law and regulation to protect wetlands, to conserve them and of course, to have wise use of our waterfowl.

John Carlson: Well, we were started in 1945, so this is our 79th year in existence. And in the 1945, it was a group of duck hunters from the Suisun Marsh part of California, who very influential, very passionate about waterfowl and they just felt that the national organizations at the time were really focused on Canada, focused on the northern prairies, focused on breeding habitat and California needed some work. In California we winter several million birds every year, ducks and geese. Back in the 40s, we were probably wintering 10 plus million birds, now we’re about 6 million birds. And those gentlemen put it together and it was really just a group of volunteers from 45 until the early 80s, when we had our first paid employee come on board. Today, fast forward, we’ve got about 50 paid employees and we cover the state and I can tell you there’s a lot of duck hunters who tell me that if California Waterfowl didn’t exist, duck hunting in California would look a lot different now. Our focus on regulations here, our focus on habitat and our focus on the Pacific Flyway is very intense.

Ramsey Russell: I’ve heard there are at times a million mallards just in the Sac Valley of California when habitat conditions are good, production’s being good and the environmental conditions are great for migration, it’s astounding the number of birds California produces and winters. John, when you talked about the history of some of those founders building up the wintering ground and stuff like that, do you have any idea or a sense of why, specifically, they felt California needed special attention other than there used to be a lot of ducks? I mean, were they dealing with any specific habitat loss issues or civilization encroachment or something like that? Had it just become so bereft in terms of habitat availability that they said, man, we better hold the fort and build the fort and save this thing?

John Carlson: Definitely, as California has a lot of pressure. We’ve got close to 40 million people in the state and back then, of course, there were a lot less people, but the development pressures were definitely on the radar and people could see that and wetlands were being converted to agriculture, they were being converted to urban sprawl and all of that was at a cost for waterfowl. So they were pretty visionary back then because things were great then, their limits were very liberal, there were a lot of birds, but I think we’re really lucky that they got a hold and they started getting things into law and regulation to protect wetlands, to conserve them and of course, to have wise use of our waterfowl.

Mark Henley: And of course, it wasn’t just the wintering habitat, too, as you alluded to, Ramsey, I mean, we can produce a lot of birds here in California if we have the right habitat conditions and sufficient water, brood water around. So that’s a big part of what –

John Carlson: Yes, that’s a good point.

Mark Henley: CWA does, is we want to focus on raising more birds locally. I think it’s like 2/3rd of the mallards that are actually harvested in California were bred in California. So that’s the great thing, is we can control our own destiny, regardless of what’s going on in other parts of the continent to a certain extent. We just need the funds and the assistance of private landowners to get that kind of habitat out on the ground.

Ramsey Russell: Go ahead.

Jake Messerley: Sorry. And that’s really what makes California unique to many states is we’ve got birds here 365 days a year. There are birds breeding here, we got the birds that come down and migrate, we’ve always got ducks and we grow a significant number that our hunters benefit from. And back in the 80s, that’s when CWA started doing a lot of research on nesting projects and documented that Suisun Marsh specifically had some of the highest nesting densities in the country, a hugely important nesting population of mallards, gadwall, cinnamon teal and a lot of our efforts over the last 2 decades have been focused on breeding habitat and trying to support that mallard population, which is always under pressure with the urban sprawl and changing landscape that John mentioned.

Ramsey Russell: Speaking of producing ducks, life is full of surprises. I was surprised to know there were even wood ducks in California, let alone a lot of them and this blows my mind to this day that California Waterfowl Association’s nest box program has produced over a million wood ducks in the state of California. Talk about paving your own destiny, tell me a little bit about this wood duck nesting program. Can anybody speak on that?

A Wood Duck Nesting Program in CA

John Carlson: Can anybody want to take that one?

Jake Messerley: Yeah, sure. Well, back in the 90s a group of folks got together and organized and decided to start a nest box program to start raising wood ducks, that as California was developed our riparian habitats, our wetland habitats were lost and the wood duck population plummeted and thankfully, a bunch of duck hunters got together and said they wanted to do something about it. And over time, we’ve built up a significant number of volunteers and I think we’ve got upwards of 6000 boxes that are actively managed on the landscape now. And it’s amazing what happens over time. And very fortunate that we’re going to celebrate a million ducklings this year and that’s a good pivot point that we’re going to take that and try to accelerate that. We can do a lot more, there’s a lot of opportunity to grow more wood ducks in this state and we’re going to be working on some plans to do a lot more with that program.

Ramsey Russell: How important are wood ducks to the overall bag in California? And is it limited to just certain regions?

Jake Messerley: Yes, I would say yes. Wood ducks have become a staple, especially in the last couple years with mallard population falling off areas like the Butte Sink or even down in the Delta where there are a fair number of wood ducks, the hunters are pretty happy harvesting those birds.

Duck Egg Salvage Programs in California

So we banded together with farmers and volunteers and created a program where we go out and gather those eggs before harvest, take them to a hatchery, raise them, band them and let them go. 

Ramsey Russell: Does California Waterfowl Association still spearhead a Egg Salvage program?

Jake Messerley: We do.

Ramsey Russell: Could you go into depth on that? Because that is also a very amazing program that involves California Waterfowl Association, a bunch of volunteers, your biological staff and more importantly, landowners. Participating landowners in this program? It’s a very exciting program.

Jake Messerley: Yeah. So as the landscape changed in the valley, we lost a lot of nesting habitat, the offices that I’m sitting in right here in Roseville here 15 years ago was probably a grasslands vernal pool habitat and there were mallards flying all around in this area and now every direction that you look, it’s paved over buildings. And in other parts of the state agriculture changed and we’ve got the birds are nesting in wheat fields or alfalfa fields or hay fields, and as the technology change the machines that go in through those fields move pretty quickly and they’ll destroy those nests, they’ll kill those birds, the harvest times right in the middle of the nesting season. So we banded together with farmers and volunteers and created a program where we go out and gather those eggs before harvest, take them to a hatchery, raise them, band them and let them go. And one of the big benefits of that program is the educational component, it brings awareness to wildlife habitat, nesting. We get kids involved, do tours in our Egg Salvage facility, let them handle the ducklings and it’s a pretty motivating experience for folks when they can see the immediate benefit of taking action in the field.

Ramsey Russell: Jake, I struggle to think of anything outside of – You talked about touching those ducks that so engages differently, because I see my fair share of ducks over the top of a shotgun, I touch my fair share of ducks, the dog brings in, but the opportunity to go out and put my hands on ducks, live ducks and give back to the resource, it changes and I’ve seen on like banding operations and different activities where it’s not always duck hunters that are volunteering and getting to put their hands on that resource, it’s also the non hunters. And that opens up a whole – it’s almost like its own little PR program in terms of engaging the predominant part of society that does not hunt.

Jake Messerley: Absolutely.

John Carlson: Yeah, both those programs, Ramsey, both those programs the Wood Duck and the Egg Salvage, you just hit it right on the head. You’ll get farmers who are not hunters who really buy into the program to save those eggs, you’ll get birders who really want to get involved in that Wood Duck program. And it’s kind of, we think it really brings hunters and other bird enthusiasts or just folks who are interested in wildlife together.

Ramsey Russell: Wouldn’t that be amazing to put that on the prairie potholes? I’ve just had a conversation with a biologist yesterday and we’ve had this – It’s been a recurring theme about the pintails, a lot of people think that, quote, because we only shoot one pintail that we’re shooting too many or there’s some kind of hunting related problem when, in fact, since the 70s, they’ve just been kind of a habitat black hole that’s continued to climb because of the conversion of shortgrass prairie up in the prairie pothole region to agriculture. Well, California produces a lot of ducks, we’ve already talked about that. Now we’ve got an Egg Salvage program, we can go and take those out and put them back in nature, kind of protect them, I think it’s an exciting program. What species and numbers come approximate come out of this Egg Salvage program?

Jake Messerley: Oh, boy. Species wise –

Ramsey Russell: Roundup.

Mallards, Gadwalls, and Cinnamon Teal: Key Species in the Egg Salvage Program

And it’s a few 1000 birds every year, mostly mallards, a significant number of gadwall, cinnamon teal, we also have wood ducks run through that Egg Salvage program where if we have a nest that’s destroyed that we’ve been monitoring, we’ll pull those eggs from the box and run them through the facility.

Jake Messerley: Yeah, species wise, I’m trying to think of the slide that we just saw in our REGS and Traditions committee meeting the other day, Brian Huber threw some numbers up there for us. And it’s a few 1000 birds every year, mostly mallards, a significant number of gadwall, cinnamon teal, we also have wood ducks run through that Egg Salvage program where if we have a nest that’s destroyed that we’ve been monitoring, we’ll pull those eggs from the box and run them through the facility. So it’s a few thousand birds a year and if you talk to the biologists and folks that are working on population dynamics and whatnot and a lot of folks look at this program as a complete waste of time and energy because it’s not working at a population level. But as we talked about, that emotional response that folks get in saving a duck, handling a duck, the educational component, the awareness that it brings, the PR side, has a tremendous value for the resource that we really have to stress. We like to say that every duck counts and while some folks, biologists may not agree with that we’re going to stand on that, that in the educational component is hugely important for that Egg Salvage program and our Wood Duck program.

Ramsey Russell: That’s my point entirely is that even if it’s not at the population level, it’s the PR value and if we can get not just duck hunters, heck, God, dog, we’re all time and money involved and invested lifetime worth as a form of cultural identity into duck hunting and conservation, but if we can get the rest of the public emotionally committed to conservation, it’s going to save – It will affect habitat and waterfowl at the population level. So I think it’s one of the most exciting programs I’ve ever seen a state or an organization become involved with.

Jake Messerley: Well, we’ve had more time on local news stations through these programs than anything else. And one of the things in our company wide vision statement is that we envision respected hunting communities and how best to do that and to show that the hunting community is doing good for ducks rather than just killing stuff, we do that and we’re not going to shy away from it, but in a state with 40 million people and all the pressures that are put on us, if we can show that we’re doing a lot of good with habitat work and through these other programs, I think that’s going to do our community a lot of good.

Ramsey Russell: Are you all keeping my buddies? Brad Huber, you all keeping Brian Huber, you keeping Brian busy with the – I was thinking another buddy of mine at work for you all, Brad and when I say it, but Brian Huber, you all keeping him busy with his band and programs?

Jake Messerley: Yeah. He’s got plenty of work to do, we got a lot of ducks to band, so he’s ahead of our Wood Duck program, too. And again, we want to do a lot more with that, we think there’s a lot of opportunity, not only grow ducks, but also from an education standpoint to accelerate what we’ve been doing and just do a lot more. So looking to give him a lot more support, some more staffing and just do a lot more in the field.

Ramsey Russell: How involved, you said the number reasonably, but I want you to repeat it, how big is the volunteer with the wood ducks and with the banding and with the Egg Salvage and I’m sure other programs you’ve got, I mean, you all, it’s got to require, you got 50 employees which is very impressive for a conservation organization, but this must require a tremendous amount of volunteers.

Jake Messerley: It does and we have 1000s of volunteers, I mean, we don’t do a good job of tracking and summarizing all the folks that are involved in these programs. But when there are a lot of people involved from the time that egg is picked up in the field, from the time it’s taken to the hatchery, fed every day, raised up and released, there are a lot of people involved from step one to the end.

Ramsey Russell: Are most of the volunteers, if you just had to guess, spitball, are most of the volunteers coming from the hunting segment or are you able to pull in some of the non hunter agnostics into some of these volunteer programs like nest boxing.

Jake Messerley: It’s a good mix, I’d say, I mean, there’s a lot of, especially on the wood duck side, there are a lot of volunteers that are not duck hunters. On the Egg Salvage side, a lot of them are farmers and they don’t necessarily hunt either, so it’s a good mix of folks. So it really creates an environment for the hunting community to interact with people that don’t necessarily hunt.

Ramsey Russell: That’s fantastic, I heard once we did a podcast, I don’t know, year before last, maybe, Klamath refuge was dry as a bone, that’s up in northern California. As I recall my history, it was the first federal refuge ever set aside for waterfowl by Teddy Roosevelt himself and there was a Ducks Unlimited representative on that podcast and we talked to him and a farmer, a producer up there and he cited, I can’t remember the number, but I do remember this, that in 1958, midwinter waterfowl survey counted more pintails at Klamath than exist on earth today, that is just a mind blowing number, that’s how important pintails are to the Pacific Flyway, that’s how important the Pacific Flyway and Klamath are to California and the Pacific Flyway. But there have been issues, it was bone dry and I’m starting to see a lot of footage and a lot of reports coming out of California from you all, from folks like Mike McVeigh, whose boots on the ground about the Klamath situation. Could you enlighten us as to the topic around the Klamath situation, along with the permanent water rights and what the long term goal is for this?

John Carlson: Sure.

Mark Henley: I mean, in addition to, by the way, it being an important area for pintail, it’s also a huge molting and breeding area for our local mallards, it’s almost like every part of a duck’s life cycle within our flyway is affected by what goes on up there. And as you alluded to Ramsey, like the last 4 years, even though we have, yes, had some recent deliveries of water, which are going to be great for this spring and summer, but the last 4 years have basically been a disaster up there, we’ve had record low waterfowl counts, we had one year where tens of thousands of birds died from botulism, a lot of those were local mallards that bred in the Sacramento Valley and then flew up to Klamath just to die from botulism. So it was really unfortunate and of course, that really does affect our hunter opportunity, then, for that species. We’re also too seeing birds like specks and snows migrating into the Central Valley a lot earlier than normal because there’s just not the food resources in the Klamath Basin that there once was, so it’s kind of changing the whole Pacific Flyway and not in a good way, it could have real long term consequences. And as you know too, we’ve also had then some severe, if not outright closures of hunting on Tulelake in lower Klamath. So our local hunters up there, they have a wonderful hunting tradition, people have been hunting those refuges with their families for decades, we want to make sure that that continues and it’s not just lost over time. So a lot of things going on up there in terms of the importance of the Klamath Basin to our community in terms of then the water situation and what we’ve been doing. We try to look at what is the root way to try to help address this crisis and there’s a lot of projects that could be done up in the Klamath Basin and other things, but if you’re not getting the water to the refuge, you’re really behind the curve, in our view, that’s what we’re focusing on is water. And John and Jake can add to this, but the 2 main things are, one, trying to pursue the acquisition of permanent water rights from willing landowners. We’re in contract right now with a landowner and hopefully that deal is going to be sealed here in the next few days to acquire, I believe, 3750 acre feet of water that would go to lower Klamath, in some years, it’d be hard to get all of it there, there’s some issues, so you’re not going to get all of it to the refuge year in and year out. But it’s critical water because it arrives in the summer when unit 2, which is the main sanctuary unit next to the highway really needs to be kept full, because if not, you get botulism outbreaks, also without water in unit 2, there’s going to be stranding of ducklings and molting birds. So it’s really critical timing to making sure those waterfowl are kept whole and then we’ve also facilitated some short term water deliveries from some of the neighboring agricultural districts and those have really helped to provide water for breeding birds and also to keep molt water out there during the summer. So I think a combination of the permanent water rights and then these short term deals definitely have moved the ball forward. And as to the permanent water rights, our entire goal for that is about 30,000 acre feet. So there are a number of other landowners up in Oregon, other parts of the basin, that are willing to sell their water, you just need sufficient funding to do it. And we at CWA have spent, I think, over a million dollars of our own money to try to support these water rights acquisitions, but ultimately, it’s the federal government’s responsibility, right? It’s a federal refuge, they need to take the responsibility for that. And we just have to make sure that we get funding in their budget so they do have the dollars to acquire these rights.

John Carlson: I’d like to just add to that, Ramsey, that when Mark says our own money, it was duck hunters, our donors, our supporters and it was came up to about in the final tally close to a million and a half dollars. So duck hunters really stepped in and that refuge, hundreds of thousands of shorebirds and other wetland dependent animals are benefiting from that, it’s not just the ducks. So it’s another example of waterfowl hunters really giving back on a flyway level and reaching into their own pocket in a significant way. We’re really proud of our membership stepping up to get this permanent water purchase. Basically, the pilot project was done with their support, no one else was stepping up to show that.

Ramsey Russell: When you all talk about water purchase, I get, I kind of get it because there’s a lot of competing interest for that water. So, I mean, how involved are you all with that balancing act? There’s a lot of demand for water out west, there are cities, there is agriculture, there is tribes, there’s a lot of competing interest. Has it gotten better in the past couple of years or does it seem to be getting better with that purchase water satisfying everybody’s expectations for that water? Or is it, I’m not trying to put you on the spot, but or is it reconcilable?

Waterfowl & the Klamath Basin Water Crisis

5 different irrigation districts and water users associations up there that represent farmers, environmentalists, nonprofits, Bureau of Reclamation, Fish & Wildlife service, state Fish and Games, we had 120 people in the room, maybe 150, the anger and tension in that room and I’ve been in my career now 35 years, I’ve never seen anything like it.

John Carlson: This is a great question and that so we’re focused right now, we’re focused on the Klamath, because your question is a larger, as a larger impact across the whole state, but for the klamath, the word you use, balancing, it’s a balancing act, there’s no doubt about it being a balancing act and we’re not going to say everybody’s happy with the water purchase. I went to a meeting held by the Department of Interior last spring with members from 5 tribes, about 5 different irrigation districts and water users associations up there that represent farmers, environmentalists, nonprofits, Bureau of Reclamation, Fish & Wildlife service, state Fish and Games, we had 120 people in the room, maybe 150, the anger and tension in that room and I’ve been in my career now 35 years, I’ve never seen anything like it. And so that goes way beyond one water purchase, what really is going on here is you’ve got competition, like you say, for all the resources up there. And when a drought comes into play, it just magnifies everything, I will say that I think a lot of progress has been made over the last 10 years with all of the parties coming together in more of a productive way and coming to the table and trying to work it out, but there’s still a lot of tension in the room, no doubt. Our water purchase, this is a willing seller, he came to us and basically his whole goal was that that water goes to the refuge, he did not want it to go to agriculture or to down the river, he really cares about the refuge. So that was his personal goal and the refuge needed the water. So we helped make the transition work or the transaction work. But no, you’re right, there are people up there, let’s just put it this way, there’s tribes fighting with tribes, there’s irrigation districts fighting with each other, they all dislike certain government agencies up there, it’s a real minefield.

Ramsey Russell: It’s a real balancing act. Are you aware of or does there exist, however, out of the box thinking you get or congressionally, does there exist a solution under which all of the competing interests could be satisfied? Or is water just that precious a commodity out there? I mean, I’m sitting there thinking, God dog, with the trillions of dollars spent and government spending going all which ways, why don’t we pipe it down from Alaska, those melting glaciers got that waters got to go somewhere. So, I mean, I’m just thinking way outside the box, but seriously, practically speaking, is there a solution that exists?

John Carlson: There’s a joke, do they really need all that water up there? But that’s – Mark, what were you going to say? Go ahead.

Mark Henley: I was going to say, yeah, there was actually a great solution out there called the Klamath Basin restoration agreement and it would have basically raised refuge water on parity with other water uses up in the basin. Right now, the refuge is last in line to get water, right? I mean, you got tribes, you got endangered species and you got Ag and then if there’s any water left over, then the refuge gets it. But this Klamath Basin restoration agreement would really have elevated the refuge’s status and from what I had heard, in about 9 out of 10 water years, it would have gotten sufficient water so that the refuge manager could adequately plan and manage for waterfowl in the right way. But unfortunately, it got caught up in Congress, they were looking to fund it and politics kind of deep sixed it, so it just never moved forward, but that really would have been the federal legislation that could have made a huge difference on this issue for ducks.

Jake Messerley: Mark, I think today everyone has realized that the refuge is being dry is a bad thing for everything, for fish, for farms. So I think through this crisis, this drought and all the fighting that’s happened, there’s been a realization that it is important for this refuge to remain wet at some level. When you start talking about groundwater recharge, soil subsidence, the interconnectivity of the whole ecosystem and how the fish need to have access to different habitats and it seems as if there’s a more collaborative effort underway now, at least in the last 6 to 12 months where people understand that it is important that these areas have water, and I think there’s a lot of hope that these groups are going to come together and maintain a larger wet footprint on these refuges than what we’ve seen in the past, whether that’s through additional water acquisitions or policy changes. There’s just been a lot of moving parts up there with dams coming out of the river and drought conditions and whatnot. But the sense I have is that people are coming together and there’s an acknowledgement that the refuges play a critical part in farming and wildlife habitat and they’re important for the local community, the economy and there’s going to be a more collaborative approach to getting those refuges wet.

John Carlson: Well, I agree.

Mark Henley: There’s even proposals, thanks, that would take some of the endangered sucker fish and put them on the refuge and then the refuge perhaps could provide much better breeding habitat for them and just habitat generally. So there’s ways that the refuges can really benefit some of the fish species up in the basin and there’s also proposals about creating more of a natural flow through system. I mean, the way it worked historically is my understanding is you get flooding off of the river and that would come down and flood lower Klamath the area around there, but then that water would also find its way back down to the river. So if you could create more of a system like that, that could ensure a more reliable supply of water for the refuge over the long term. So, yeah, lots of great ideas out there and I would agree with Jake that it seems like at least in the last year or 2, there’s been a lot more interest in trying to make sure that the refuge is kept whole and that there’s focus on the wetlands up there in the water that they need.

Ramsey Russell: Fantastic.

California’s Carrying Capacity for Ducks

… that balancing act is tough to balance for ducks and sometimes it can be quite depressing as to how we maintain enough habitat for ducks and balance that with the economic drivers of the state …

John Carlson: One thing, Ramsey, that really struck me when I was up at this meeting with all the different competing folks was that, kind of like Jake and Mark just said, all of them, the majority of them, grew up there and they know what this refuge was in its heyday. And I saw some really old, grizzled farmers talking to them about the state of the refuge now and the state of the waterfowl population up there and you’d see a little tear in their eye, I mean, they all care, they all really want a productive, healthy environmental system up there. How they get to it is the big challenge.

Ramsey Russell: Yep, it’s a difficult situation. We’re talking about habitat and that can’t be the only habitat issue, what strikes me in this day and age is show me a problem in modern waterfowl hunting from crowded boat ramps, too much hunting pressure, habitat loss, whatever, whatever, wetlands drainage, you name it, all the way up to environmental change and I’m going to tell you, I believe it’s habitat loss. And we’re in a current political climate where they’re trying to shove battery operated cars and solar farms and wind farms down my throat, I’m sitting there thinking, especially in the context of Klamath, but also other wetlands throughout California and throughout the United States, throughout the world is man, you want a carbon sink? Let’s talk about wetlands. Why don’t my Congress, instead of sending billions of dollars across the ocean for some reason to somebody else, why don’t we fix this problem right here in our backyard? And hey, I’m selfish, me the duck hunter, I benefit. But all of society benefits, we all benefit from old wetlands, every single person benefits from more wetlands, selfishly, I get more ducks out of the equation. What other wetland conservation topics and efforts are afoot there in California? And I’m just trying to keep it in the carbon footprint realm or not in the duck producing realm.

Jake Messerley: Well, as I mentioned earlier, the office that I sit in not too long ago, was duck habitat. There were mallard ducks breeding all around in this office complex 15 years ago and having grown up in this state and seen the change and John, you’re an old dude, you’ve seen a lot more change than I have. It can be pretty depressing to see the rate at which land is developed and changed and the carrying capacity for ducks is constantly being reduced. I saw a proposal just the other day to develop like 7500 acres of rice to develop a, basically a new city right up in the middle of duck habitat and those types of projects, I mean, it’s a balancing act, you got to have that economic growth and places for people to live and everyone’s got to make their dollar, and that balancing act is tough to balance for ducks and sometimes it can be quite depressing as to how we maintain enough habitat for ducks and balance that with the economic drivers of the state we’ve got around Suisun Marsh, there’s a proposal to develop a whole new city, I forget how many 1000s of acres, like 50 some thousand acres have been purchased and there’s a proposal to build a city right around all the wetlands and take up a lot of the grassland habitat that’s surely grown some ducks. So those types of things are happening at a rate that we just can’t keep up with, a lot of times we’re just trying to hold our own and it’s tough in a state that’s as active and as populated as California.

Ramsey Russell: Well, yes, 40 million people, you say? 40 million Californians, 330 million Americans, that’s 12, 13 percent of the entire US population is in that one state. How do you make room for wildlife, for conservation, for habitat? Talk about fighting to fight, man.

John Carlson: Yeah. A lot of people don’t realize and I grew up Back East, I grew up in Illinois and I didn’t come out here until I was in my early 20s. Growing up, I thought California was all Hollywood, I thought there was – I had no idea that there were this many wetlands and this many birds wintering here, and I think a lot of people Back East have no idea about California’s habitat and don’t even realize that we have a pretty vibrant hunting population here. That said, I think that Jake is right, that the pressures are immense out here and I can remember one of our board members early on when I first started with CWA, his fear was that, okay, we have 6 million birds wintering here every year, now, the media, to me, spins everything, not everything, but a large amount of things to our public that everything is endangered, everything is doom and gloom on wildlife side, just like everything, right? And so if the world realized that we have 6 million birds here, what happens if the citizenry and the legislature someday comes to us as waterfowl people and say, why do you have to have 6 million? Everything else is endangered, why can’t you get by with 500,000? That’s a real fear to me, because if they strip out these wetlands and they say, well, you can spare losing more ducks, you can spare losing more population, you guys are greedy, you don’t need that many, I mean those are the kind of things that keep me up. And Jake’s right, the pressures are constant here. Constant pressures.

Ramsey Russell: Well, we’re sitting here talking about a million wood ducklings, a million wood ducklings produced last year, we’re talking about a banding program, we’re talking about the Egg Salvage program, we’re talking about the calvary to the rescue of Klamath, we’re talking about other habitat throughout California and what I’ve not heard you say is that project Coyote or Center for Biological Diversity or some of these left wing anti hunting organizations are collaborating with you all to do anything except stop hunting.

John Carlson: One thing that I can tell you is that and I was with the Fish and Game commission before I came to CWA and I was with Fish and Game for 21 years. And I dealt with I was in the game program, I dealt with the anti hunting groups a lot. Waterfowl is the singular species or I’m sorry, singular population and group of hunters that they really have stayed away from in California, because our data sets are decades long and we really have our conservation ethic and our work together. And the amount of counts that are done every year over all the years, they’ve never really made a move on us, and then Mark can tell you, at our commission meetings, you rarely get testimony by the antis on any waterfowl proposals or any waterfowl work. Now, believe me, that doesn’t mean we’re resting ever, because we work with all the other hunting groups in California to fight for hunters rights across the board. But I can tell you on the waterfowl side, we don’t really have attacks by the antis, we do work with other conservation groups on getting water on the landscape. Jake, I don’t know if you want to mention some of the great things that happened with some of the funding we’re getting to put water out for shorebirds, which, of course, values our duck populations.

Jake Messerley: Well, I mean, I think CWA has been a long standing member of the Central Valley joint venture and we work with a lot of conservation groups that are not hunting groups, we’ve got strong partnerships with the Nature Conservancy and Audubon Point Blue, who just put out a nice video on the Klamath refuge, they’re not hunting groups per se. And Mark works closely with a lot of different folks at the Capitol that helped to push forward some of our initiatives. So in a state as diverse as California, you’ve got to have those partnerships to get anything done and Mark can speak to that more than anybody.

Impact of Hunting on Wetland Conservation

I mean, we certainly have to if we’re going to try to defeat some of the anti hunting, anti gun bills that come down pipe and there’s so many of those, I can’t even tell you, we have more this year, it’s all about partnering with other groups and no one group’s going to do it all. So

Mark Henley: Yeah, I will say on the anti hunting groups and why they don’t attack wetlands and waterfowl, I mean, if hunting was to go away, duck hunting, we would overnight lose about 2/3rd of our wetlands and not only that, but huge amounts of funding streams that support other conservation efforts. So I think we have definitely made it known that the duck hunter brings a lot to the table in terms of not only the financial resources, but the volunteerism and just the general support of wetland and waterfowl conservation. So that’s been good. Yeah and we partner with a lot of different groups then at the legislature, I mean, we certainly have to if we’re going to try to defeat some of the anti hunting, anti gun bills that come down pipe and there’s so many of those, I can’t even tell you, we have more this year, it’s all about partnering with other groups and no one group’s going to do it all. So the good thing is we have a good coalition of other sportsmen’s groups in California that we work with and then we have a lot of great allies within the legislature, within the Congress that we’ve been working with for years. And so that has helped to make sure that our interests have been protected.

Ramsey Russell: Absolutely. Along those lines, talk about some of those new firearm or some of those crazy laws, because look what I’m trying to say is John, for example comes from Illinois, comes from Back East, has a perception like a lot of listeners, myself included, before I met old John Wills out there and did the burrito tour, we got this perception, I mean, obviously, California’s a blue state, unless you look at the land map and realize it’s not a blue state, it’s just got some big old blue cities in it, it’s mostly a red state. And everybody I know, which is 100s of people, to include friends and associates and clients in conservation as such as yourself are just like America, I mean, it’s the fabric of America. It shocks me that if I get just 30, 40 minutes outside of a city like Sacramento, I’m in green acres type communities that don’t even have a stop sign, it’s an amazing place like that. But it’s got to be daunting to conduct the kind of conservation and pro hunting, the kind of conservation that requires hunters to become involved with California’s political climate. Could you all talk about some of these crazy laws? Because here’s what I’m saying, isn’t it crazy how a lot of these, a lot of these, a lot of this legislation originates in California, if it can take hold, it starts to spread east, you know what I’m saying? So what are some of the laws and what is it like to work at the level of conservation you all are doing in California’s political climate?

Mark Henley: Yeah, so, unfortunately, we have had some losses over the last few years. So, I mean, we have lost, basically trapping entirely in our state, there was also a bill to ban the use of dogs for hunting bears and other mammals and so we lost that ability. I don’t know if you’ve ever been here and tried to purchase ammunition, but now you have to go through a background check and pay a fee every time you purchase ammunition.

Ramsey Russell: Even shotgun shells, even duck loads?

Mark Henley: Yep, absolutely.

John Carlson: Even target loads, I took my son to Fastpro the other day to buy several cases of trap shooting loads and he had to go through a background check.

Mark Henley: Yeah, and then we have another one that limits gun purchases to one per month and of course, that’s really interfered with our dinners where people win 3, 4 or 5 guns, it’s like, what are they going to do? Come back and pick up a gun every month? So just nonsense like that, but really one of the worst passed last year and it just barely passed, I mean, we thought we had this thing killed and then unfortunately, we had a turncoat legislator vote for it right at the end. And it’s going to impose an 11% tax on all firearms and ammunition, very similar to the Pittman Robertson tax, but the difference is none of the funding that’s going to be generated is going to go for conservation, it’s all going to go for violence prevention programs. And you know what a slap in the face to hunters and other law abiding gun owners who are so safe with their firearms to have to pay for gun violence preventions programs, we have nothing to do with the gun violence problem, that’s entirely separate from what we’re doing. So, anyway, that’s going to take effect July 1 and then I’ve heard very recently that now other states saw what California did and there’s I think, about 7 of them that have their own bills pending to basically impose the same tax. So, yeah, what starts in California, unfortunately does not stay here, and it just seems like the craziest of all political ideas originate in this state, I mean, I can’t tell you the amount of animal rights groups and anti gun groups that are down at the Capitol, it just seems like just about every animal rights group or anti gun group has an office here in our state. And so they really have focused for whatever reason on California to really move their most extreme ideas and proposals and they feel that if they can get it passed here, then they can just take it somewhere else.

California is the Battleground for Waterfowl Issues

You guys all know we already go through hunter safety, why should this be applied to hunters?

John Carlson: Ramsey, we talk about we really are a battleground state, that we talk about this for years that the national groups really need to help us here in California to battle all of these issues and whether or not they think we’re a lost cause, because California is not a lost cause, like I say, we still have a great amount of hunters and a lot of passion here and we do have a lot of relevance at the Capitol. Mark has relationships at the Capitol that go decades, over 20 years and we can get into doors on both sides of the aisle. But one thing that made me laugh, last year, I was in Washington, DC with Mark, we were meeting with several legislators offices and then we went to a banquet with several hunting groups from around the country. And one of the guys from Back East, the CEO, I said, hey, listen, don’t forget about us in California and without missing the beat, this was over a cocktail, but without missing the beat, he says, you guys are behind enemy lines. We’re not going to forget about you, but you’re behind enemy lines and it really hit me hard, I mean, it’s to an extent, true.

Mark Henley: And then I’ll just say a couple bills this year that we’re battling right now, there were hearings on them last week. One would require the annual registration and payment of a fee for every gun somebody owns and as you guys know, there’s guys out there with 40, 50 guns and are gun safe, they would have to annually register them and pay fees, I mean, it’s just harassment of legal gun owners, it’s ridiculous. Luckily, that bill, it was so controversial, they actually pulled it from the hearing and so we’ll see what happens with it, but there was enough opposition that it’s really slowed it down. And then we have another bill that would require, if you just possess a gun, you would have to go obtain a firearm safety certificate. You guys all know we already go through hunter safety, why should this be applied to hunters? There’s no reason at all. But, yeah, they want you then to get these safety certificates and that again is for every gun that you have.

Ramsey Russell: Wow. Jake, as the incoming CEO, I mean, you got, you got your, you got your work cut out for you, you’ve got a lot of programs, a big and growing staff and talking about some of these hurdles, how do you feel about that? I mean, we’re allowed to hear –

John Carlson: I know how he feels about it.

Jake Messerley: Well, yeah, no, it’s pretty daunting when you start talking about it all and the challenges that we have, having been here for over 2 decades now, I’ve seen quite a bit of it and fortunately, we’ve got a strong board, we’ve got a really strong staff, passionate staff and all we can do is just put our best foot forward and work on these things. All of our programs are really designed to motivate people to stay engaged and be active participants in the process and so long as we can, can keep people engaged, I believe that we’ll – my kids, my grandkids will still have a place to hunt in this state, which is ultimately, I think, what all of us want to see. But it’s going to take a tremendous amount of work on everybody’s behalf and I’m just super thankful to continue to have the opportunity to work for California Waterfowl. It’s been a great organization and super proud of everything that we do.

Ramsey Russell: So, it really underscores to me, despite the daunting challenges with habitat, with 40 million people that mostly aren’t duck hunters or hunters in general, in that political climate, that an organization like California Waterfowl Association remain so committed, but has been so committed as to have made such headway in a lot of big areas, I’m just thinking of Davy Crockett at the Alamo, you know what I’m saying? It gets down to that. So that’s got to be a full time job.

Jake Messerley: Well and John remembers, we’ve gone through strategic planning processes before where there’s been discussion about us switching our messaging and changing directions and we’ve managed to just keep it centered on hunting, we exist to protect the interests of duck hunters. And hopefully it never happens, at some point, if hunting goes away in California, I guess we’re going to end up going away, too, because we’re going to stick to that mission and fight it to the bitter end.

Ramsey Russell: But see, hunting is not going to go down, go away in California without a long battle, I mean, because in addition to the habitat and access and conservation and waterfowl production that California Waterfowl Association is doing, you’ve also got a tremendous outreach program to recruit and retain and educate outside, in other words, you ain’t just preaching to the choir, you all are still bringing people in, for example, we had a guest on here recently, great photographer from out there in California, Jen Barton, who was telling us about a hunt program where she was able to go hunting without having to beat the crowd, where she can learn her art, enjoy it and get hook, line and sinker into waterfowl hunting as a new adult hunter and she was able to accomplish that through some of you all’s hunting programs.

The Success of California Hunting Programs

And just a really interesting view of how things played out with those folks and I was just super thankful that we’re able to recruit 2 women and a guy, get them into the hunting community and now they’re super passionate and they’re out there doing it on their own. 

Jake Messerley: Yeah. Well our hunt program, we started back in, I think, 2009 and it’s grown now where we’ve got several 1000 people every year that get to participate and a lot of the people that run through that program are relatively new to hunting. This year, I guided 3 folks down at our property, Quimby island down the Delta and 2 women and a guy who started hunting for the first time this year through one of CWAs camp programs and then they met each other at one of our fundraising events and then they won a hunt in our hunt program and they ended up with me at duck blind. And just a really interesting view of how things played out with those folks and I was just super thankful that we’re able to recruit 2 women and a guy, get them into the hunting community and now they’re super passionate and they’re out there doing it on their own. And it all started just this year at one of our camps. And we’ve got 1000s of people doing that every year.

Ramsey Russell: There’s a lot of –

John Carlson: There’s no doubt, Ramsey, we have to reach out way beyond our tent, we have to get out there and get as many people, whether it’s through the Wood Duck program, Egg Salvage or through our hunt camps and to me, that’s some of the most exciting things we do. When I go to our kids camps, graduations, you see these kids, their eyes are popping, I mean, they’re so excited, I mean, you can’t even describe it, you have to be there to see it. And they’re never going to forget this for the rest of their life, what they’ve been through, the experience they’ve had through the hunt camps and connecting with nature, learning about conservation, it’s really exciting, that’s what kind of keeps me going. And even after I retire, I’m going to be Hunter ed instructor and stay in the game, because getting not only children or youth involved, but getting, like Jake says, adults who want to get involved, we have to welcome them all.

Ramsey Russell: See, that, to me, hits a nail on the head, because to me, being in my part of the world, it’s a foregone conclusion that the children of hunters will at least be introduced to hunting, now I’ve got a program like yours that is possibly bringing in their friends that don’t have parents that hunt. And even if we get every hunter’s child involved in hunting, they’re all going to be introduced to it, but even if we do, because political relevance has so much to do with money and I mean, in terms of Pitman Robinson expenditures and tax and licenses and equipment and everything else even if we get every hunter’s child involved with hunting, it could be 15, 20, 30 years before they begin to have enough disposable income, they can contribute meaningfully, political relevance wise to hunting. But you start bringing in some of these adult hunters and more and more we’re hearing of these, quote, adult onset hunters that are getting into it, well, if they get as fired up about it as we all did when we got into hunting, boom, they’re going to spend money right now. They’re going to join organizations like California Waterfowl Association, Ducks Unlimited, Delta Waterfowl, whomever and start moving the needle right now. And that’s what excites me a lot about it, it’s almost like you’ve got this – not the guys like me, the old guys like me the aging out hunters like myself that grew up hunting with granddad and dad and just was introduced to it at a young age and came along, but now a lot of this adult onset type hunter is getting into it differently or for different reasons than I did, almost like a way to source their food or come up with a great way to feed their family, this field of fork thing, you know what I’m saying? I mean, it’s important to people now to know where their meat and nutrition came from. And I see a movement like that, do you all pick up on that, too? Jake, John, when you all are interacting at some of these courses and some of these hunt programs you’ve got, when you’re in the blind with these people, do you have an idea of why these adults or these older people are not children but grown adults are all of a sudden showing an interest or getting involved with hunting?

Jake Messerley: Yeah, a lot of it is exactly that, Ramsey, I mean, they’re interested in sourcing their own food, that field to table movement is real. And I mean, I think that’s a big reason why a lot of these adults are getting into it. Absolutely.

Ramsey Russell: So it’s interesting to me and I think there may be more to it than just field of fork because I’ve met a lot of people in their 30s, 40s, 50s that are all of a sudden going out to hunt and their expectation of the resource in terms of how they judge success is totally different than the average duck hunter, they’re just out there. And I can imagine in a lot of the wetlands I’ve hunted public lands especially everybody on the marsh is just like myself. But I can see a future where the guy 2 blinds away, he’s just there to kill a few ducks, to feed his family, a good wholesome nutritious type thing and that changes everything, doesn’t it?

Jake Messerley: We’re experiencing that now, a lot of the folks that run through our program, very green, brand new hunters and then they’re moving out onto these public wildlife areas and running into folks like you. And there’s surely some conflict there where those 2 hunting approaches don’t align and create some challenges, but –

Ramsey Russell: It’s a place to remind, I remind myself of situations like that because everybody doesn’t see, like I do or like you do, that we’re kind of all, whether we’re in California, Mississippi or Maryland, we’re all in the same life raft together, there’s only 900,000 duck hunters in America and we’re kind of all in this thing together, no matter how or why or where we hunt.

Jake Messerley: Absolutely.

Ramsey Russell: Can you talk a little bit about your Veteran’s Hunt program?

Jake Messerley: Sure.

Ramsey Russell: That sounds exciting.

John Carlson: Yeah, we love it.

Coordinating Free Hunts in the Golden State

And I think at this point, the sky’s the limit, every year there’s more and more people that are getting involved and really wanting to help out our servicemen and women and provide them opportunities and experiences in the field to reconnect with each other and just support each other.

Jake Messerley: Yeah, I mean, we’ve got some really passionate volunteers Mike Kellogg, Mike Petersen they’re volunteers, they’re working for free, coordinating hunts, coordinating events, working with our staff. And what started is as one event from Camp Pendleton at our Suisun Marsh property, grizzly ranch years ago has grown into a really massive volunteer effort to just get people out in the field. And I think at this point, the sky’s the limit, every year there’s more and more people that are getting involved and really wanting to help out our servicemen and women and provide them opportunities and experiences in the field to reconnect with each other and just support each other. And it’s just a great program that we’re happy to participate in, I mean, it really is just a volunteer effort that we get to support. So it’s fantastic, several great stories come from –

Ramsey Russell: Over 750 veterans taken out on hunts in 2023. How many of those would have been new hunters? Any of them?

Jake Messerley: Yeah, I don’t know the exact number, but absolutely, yeah, no, there are definitely new hunters that are coming in through that program. I don’t have the exact number on hand, but they’re new hunters involved?

Ramsey Russell: What are some of the stories you’ve heard?

John Carlson: I can tell you. Go ahead.

Jake Messerley: Yeah. Go ahead, John.

John Carlson: We also partnered with some other conservation groups and veterans groups throughout our program to help generate as much interest as possible and I was on a pheasant hunt at a pheasant farm last year with 20 veterans and we went out, I was asked to go out and help a veteran on a hunt. Well, he had lost his arm on his left arm, he only had his right arm and he was able to hold a semi auto shotgun and aim and fire fine, but then he needed help reloading. It was really unbelievable and emotional and it was really his first pheasant hunt and he just had a great time and was so thankful, but when you look at the sacrifice they did and then now his interest in hunting and he was a new hunter, it really affected me deeply. And those folks are so appreciative to what we’re doing to get them out in the field. And you’ll hear other veterans talk about it helps these hunters emotionally, these veterans there’s a lot of issues coming back with PTSD and other issues coming back and getting them out into nature, there’s a strong correlation it really helps and you’ll hear that directly from veterans, so being part of all that is really special. We have a really great video on our hunt program where we interview a fair amount of veterans in that are involved in the program, they talk about how it can really help people emotionally and it’s a win-win, getting them out into nature, getting them out to hunting and then helping them get through some of their issues.

Ramsey Russell: John, I think there’s a lot of truth in that. I mean, I know I’m a lot more relaxed just being out in the duck blind among friends and among the wind blowing and the sun rising and the birds flying and around the water, I mean, there is something very health beneficial about just being outside –

John Carlson: Therapeutic. It is for sure.

Ramsey Russell: And I think everybody, hunters or not hunters or new hunters or old hunters, can say the same thing. I want to jump back real quick about you all’s hunt program and ask you all, because California is blessed with, to me, a lot of really good public land habitat, it’s competitive. Well, I would say that a public land hunter in California is one of the best go getting duck hunters out there, I’ve been on those properties and they go get it. I’d say the same thing about state of Arkansas and other public land, too, the public land hunters are go getters. But what’s different about the California Waterfowl Hunt program in terms of access and how you go about getting into some of that private situation?

Jake Messerley: Well, I think what sets us apart is access in California is extremely limited, everything’s private and it’s really expensive. No different, I’m sure, than anywhere else in the country.

Ramsey Russell: Nationwide.

Jake Messerley: And one of the things that when you talk about the nationwide R3 effort and all the different things that folks are working on to prop up the hunter numbers, we really wanted to focus on access, providing quality time in the marsh and that was the basis for our hunt program. And we’re fortunate that we have our own properties where we can host people, but we’re also fortunate that we’ve got private landowners that understand the need to support the hunting community and recruit new people and they donate their properties to allow us to bring people out and provide them that opportunity, that experience to inspire, motivate them to get engaged and be active in the hunting community and wetland conservation. So it’s one of the programs that I’m most proud about, especially seeing where it started in 2009 with one hunt on, I believe it was Brian Stucker over in Dunnigan, he let us use his rice blind and we started the program with one hunt and now we’ve got, I think, over 3000 people that are going through that program every year, which is equivalent to say Howard Slough Wildlife Area, a mid sized public wildlife area. We’re putting a similar number of people through that program every year. So, it effectively has created additional access and capacity within our public hunting system to give people an opportunity to go out in the marsh and enjoy a good experience, get their toes wet, so to speak, before they go into that more competitive public system that you were speaking.

Mark Henley: And we have also tried to help that public system out, too, I mean we have a public land hunters committee that tries to provide advice to the refuge managers as to how they can increase and enhance the opportunities out there and then we work with the state legislature to try to make sure that there’s enough funding to manage those areas year in and year out. As you know, Ramsey, I mean, you got wetlands out there and waterfowl habitat and it ain’t cheap to manage all that. So, the state needs a constant supply of funding to make sure that they provide quality habitat year in and year out. So, yeah, I mean, public area hunting is very key and that’s, of course, where a lot of people cut their teeth on hunting, I mean, newbies tend to start out there, so we got to keep that going, but I think our hunt program then is a great complement to that and frankly, provides, I would say, higher quality opportunities than what you get on a public ground. So it’s something that there’s a lot of people or a lot of people have really benefited from and I would only see the number of people trying to use our properties growing, I know it has increased year to year. I don’t see that trend changing anytime soon.

Ramsey Russell: Access is increasing constraint nationwide and it goes back to habitat loss. We’re talking about the importance of hunters and recruiting and educating the 3R’s and everything else on hunters, but you 3 guys are hunters, I’m sitting here looking at you on the screen and there’s mounted birds behind you and John’s got a big old pintail. Yeah, he’s also got a pintail on his shirt, but look here, you all got mounted birds behind you, speckle bellies and pintails and canvasback, cinnamon teal. What’s that bird over your right shoulder, Jake? It looks kind of like a gadwall, but then it can’t zoom in, it also looks a little bit like a hybrid.

Jake Messerley: Yeah, no, that’s a Brewer’s duck. 2 years ago, I was hunting with my dad at Los Banos Wildlife Area and we had just dropped the drake mallard in the pond and bird was sitting there kicking, we’re watching the dog go out and get it and out of the corner of my eye, I saw this odd looking duck fly by and hit the call and he circled back and he was a little high, but I gave it to him. And yeah, my dad does a little taxidermy, so we put him on the wall. It’s the one and only hybrid that I’ve ever or Brewer’s duck that I’ve ever taken.

Ramsey Russell: So did all 3 of you all grow up duck hunting or were you all adult on sets?

Jake Messerley: Yeah, I started, my dad threw me in a tulip patch, probably when I was 7, 8 years old, I took my first – killed my first duck Volta Wildlife Area when I was 8, I think it was, shoot, I don’t know, date myself, probably 1986 or something. So never forget that March coming alive first thing in the morning, that sunrise, the whistling ducks, Coot splashing in the water, all those things. That energy sticks with you as you know.

Ramsey Russell: It does.

Jake Messerley: Even though I don’t get to do it as much as I’d like to, sitting in this office, I remember that day.

John Carlson: Yeah, I started, I was 8 years old when I got my first pheasant with a bolt action 410 with my dad. Yeah, it was it was a planted bird, but it was in front of a sportsmen club and they all were very thrilled, I got it and I’ll never forget it, like Jake said, the rush, just the rush of getting it and everybody congratulating you and then getting out into the marsh in my early teens, my uncle was the one who really got me out. And, yeah, you’ll never forget those days, that’s your first time, really, in the marsh at sunrise and you don’t forget it. I think the other thing that I wanted to mention, when we do lobby days and we have some of our members with their kids come out with us to talk to legislators, when a young child talks about their first time in the marsh, to say a veteran legislator, those legislators listen, it really captivates them. So getting youngsters involved is pretty great.

Ramsey Russell: Because there’s nothing as honest as a child.

Mark Henley: Exactly, for sure. Yeah, now they’re going to give you the real story and on my end, I didn’t start, actually, until I was in college, I was lucky enough, I had a real hardcore roommate who was into hunting and he got me into it and I just obviously been hooked ever since. But it’s funny, they talk about the different stages of hunting, at first, it was all about killing the limit, getting out there with the dog and yeah, I was lucky I had 4 kids. Now it’s really about just getting them out in the marsh and spending time with them, I mean, duck hunting is such a social activity and what better way to spend it with than with people in your immediate family? So that’s what I really look forward to, is just keep getting my kids out there and fortunately, all of them love to hunt. My 2 daughters, they’re now a little bit older there’re in college, but they when they were little, they were little killers, man, that –

John Carlson: Yeah.

Mark Henley: They would go about anything that moved out in the marsh and they still to this day, just really enjoy it. So definitely quality time spend with them.

John Carlson: I went out on some of those junior hunts with my son and Mark and his daughters and I have to give Mark a ton of credit, he raised all 4 of his children, is to appreciate hunting. And I remember on some of the openers for Dove, his wife has 4 kids and him, the 6 of them, will be going down the road for a hunt and that that’s just -Mark, you’ve done just such a great job of having the whole family connected to the outdoors, it’s pretty awesome. But I have to wonder how much he spends on ammo because his kids do like to pull the trigger.

Save It for the Blind Podcast

And so tell me a little bit about it, how it’s affecting your hunters, but also how you are using it to recruit new hunters or to influence Californians or politicians that are still on the fence.

Mark Henley: No, I definitely have paid the piper on that, but it’s all good.

Ramsey Russell: Well, kids do shoot a lot when dad’s footing a bill for it, I’ve learned that lesson myself. Give me some free ammo and I’m going to pull the trigger a lot more, too. Anyway, I want to end on this series because we’ve talked about a lot of the various facets, vital facets to waterfowl hunting, the future of waterfowl hunting in California, but I want to talk a little bit about you all’s outreach. I know we’ve touched on some different education programs and involvement programs you’ve got, but tell me a little bit about Save it for the Blind Podcast and How To series, because it’s a little both, I know you have guests on there, but it’s also a How To series, isn’t it? What a great educational format we’ve got with this podcast today. And so tell me a little bit about it, how it’s affecting your hunters, but also how you are using it to recruit new hunters or to influence Californians or politicians that are still on the fence.

John Carlson: Well, I can tell you we’re really proud of it, the work that Brad is doing and the rest of our marketing crew, our communications crew, it’s extremely exciting. And the reception has been great Podcast and the How To series, I’m excited about it because it is a great tool to point beginners or people that want to learn more or work on their skills, those How To series are just, it’s just an excellent way. And the Podcast, we’re brand new to it, I mean over the last several months and it’s just growing leaps and bounds. I don’t know if you want to add to that, Jake or Mark, but I’ve been super happy with it and it’s a great tool.

Jake Messerley: Yeah, I mean, I think we’re late to the game on some of these outlets to reach people. And since I’ve been at CWA, we’ve always been accused of not communicating well, we do a lot of different things, so many different things and it’s hard to tell people about the work that we’re doing and the work that we need to do. And we’ve seen through this podcast that we’re reaching new audiences, we’re getting our message across the YouTube How To series, all the things that Brad’s been working on lately have really boosted our outreach efforts and is helping us to better connect with people, to let them know about all the work that we’re doing and the challenges that we face. And ultimately, we’re hoping that these things build support for the work that we’re doing and can help us to do more to keep up with all the challenges that we’re facing.

Mark Henley: On the political side, we also have a grassroots electronic service that helps our members to weigh in on legislation that’s pending and that’s been very successful. We’ve been able to get thousands of our members and other sportsmen to help out in trying to stop some of these bad bills coming down the pipe. And it’s been really effective way of getting them engaged and then actually having a practical impact on the outcome of these bills. Yeah, no, it’s all about communication, for sure and Jake’s right, we do a lot of things, we just got to make sure we’re always getting that message out to our members and the broader public because there’s a big story to be told.

Ramsey Russell: Fantastic. Guys, I really appreciate you all, Mark Henley, John Carlson, Jake, I really appreciate you all coming on and sharing this story and what inspires me, why I wanted to do this story about California Waterfowl Association is it’s easy in this modern era to feel like the sky has fallen. A lot of folks frustrated with the death by a 1000 cuts that duck hunting seems to be going through just seem to be frustrated and for lack of a better word, whining and finger pointing at all the different reasons and all the different things going on, whereas in California Waterfowl Association, I see a growing amount of employees and volunteers rolling up their sleeves and getting involved with waterfowl production, hunting access, PR, education policy and wetlands conservation, I think it’s inspiring and, wow, I wish that all 50 states had an association just like yourself fighting the same battles to hold the fort. So, thank you all very much for what you all do. Do you have any parting words of advice? If somebody listening said, hey, I want to start an association like that in my backyard, where would you even start on something like this?

John Carlson: Well, I think that they can look at our model and there are other associations around the country, I know Wisconsin is pretty strong, there’s small ones in Oregon, Washington and Nevada, believe me, if anybody called me and asked me for some advice, we would be happy to help them out, it is very important that as many people get involved. And then, of course, there’s the other associations that they can get involved with and just make sure you do something right. Do something.

Ramsey Russell: Just keep moving forward, keep fighting the fight, that’s all we can do at this point. Folks, you all been listening to Mark Henley, John Carlson, Jake Messerley, who is the new CEO of California Waterfowl Association. Thank you all very much for listening to this episode of Mojo’s Duck Season Somewhere podcast. We’ll see you next time.